Try driving a C4 convertible, you will then appreciate a camber brace especially with the top down.

i used to notice that my C4 honestly could not corner as tightly with the top down, after putting the camber brace on, it now can.

 

I recently installed the CB on my 96. On the street I can NOT tell the difference. I have a track day coming up, but I'm changing to a 30mm front bar tonight before the event.

The body roll on my 96 Z51 is terrrible. so in my quest to elimate roll, I brought the CB and bigger sway bars. I'll let you know after the track event..
that is my test :D

 

Hi Larry,

It seems that you're the guy to do the testing. You have all the equipment and facilities, put a CB on and measure it for us.

 

I bought for reducing the rattles and shakes. It was well worth the money for that alone. I certainly does reduce flex like others have said.

Plus it gives you a better feel. I mean it drives better and tracks better. Is that going to translate to numbers? Probably not.


[Modified by ericcer, 9:20 AM 7/6/2003]

 

Here's a question: Has anybody installed the CB and didn't like the results?

 

Buy one and install it, you won't believe how much tighter it makes the car handle. I know it's hard to imagine since the car handles so well anyway but it does work.

Believe me I'm the most suspicisious person there is about seat of the pants improvements. I'm a firm believer that the seat of the pants feels different because the wallet is lighter for almost any mod but this one really works. My 52mm TB on the other hand, that was a waste.

BTW, just more useless fuel for the fire. A friend of mine drove my car not to long ago, he also owns a 92 Vette. He had completely forgotten about me having the camber brace. When he came back he was mentioning how my car just feels a lot tighter than his car does. I reminded him that I had the camber brace. That could be it, it might not be, who knows.

BTW also let me point out that track testing is going to be invalid as well. As long as the weather can vary 1 degree throughout the day and a human is still driving you won't be able to attribute any track time change to the camber brace. If all the engineers want to know how much it helps just get the car and find a way to apply the kinds of side loading forces that the brace is supposed to prevent. Measure the deflection without the brace and then install the brace and measure again.

However since nobody seems to be willing to do any real scientific testing we might as well drop it. Those who have purchased it are all happy with the result, those who have not purchased this item may be skeptical. If you feel like it's a waste of money, don't buy it.


[Modified by Nathan Plemons, 9:28 AM 7/6/2003]

 

This is a very interesting post. I'm also a little skeptical on how much the camber brace helps. Having an engineering background, and taking a close look at the front of my '95, it seems to me it should be strong enough. I'm sure it helps some but I would love to see some real scientific data instead of subjective comments.

I think the C4 chassis would benefit from a strong/light cross brace (i.e. the verts) more than the camber brace. The cross brace also keeps the weight down low where you want it if you have to add any.

:cheers:

 

I can't disagree that I should be the one to test the bar but it would not be a fair test. My car currently has fully legal SCCA ITE roll cage. It's significantly stiffer than a stock chassis and the results would prove nothing. C'est la vie. :skep: :skep: :skep:

 

While the original question is valid, lots of :bs is being raised. I put it on my car and it no longer shakes when hitting one particular bump on a 45 degree turn (just passing on interstate 95 S after "benny's" ) that everytime I hit it prior would make the car squirrel out and literally chirp the tires as rubber rehits the ground to the point of possible control loss of the car if not corrected immediately, that was at 55 MPH with cruise control.

Now with brace and ONLY the brace as the change in mod within the suspension with a month window before it was added to the car, at the same speed no loss of control or chirping, infact being a daredevil I hit it at 65, no change, 75 no change, 80 (crazy anyway for this turn radius and speed), starts to chirp a bit, No higher speed was used (disclaimer, this was at 2 AM no traffic after daytime runs proved to much traffic in the way).

While this may not be a scientific "data" that everyone seems to be slobbering about, it's a real world, comparitive test that proves to ME, that money was well spent and does the job and reduces traction issues (BTW its the FE1 suspension with FX3 new shocks......shocks were in in december....remember the month window). The car shakes less both with the top on and off, significantly "tighter" feel, happy customer.

Those that are skeptical, fine move on have a nice day, those that have it, stand by, as do I. My personnal test may not be a "scientific" method still proves to ME that this mod was worth the money spent for it.

Oh yeah I'm an engineer by trade and also a professor built on that engineering degree.

Kitt

 

What an interesting discussion. I got my camber brace when they were first offered on the forum as a group purchase. I think it was a good investment in my car. I dont road race, auto cross, drag or anything like that. I pleasure drive the car with the top down most of the time.

Now tell me how can one measure satisfaction? The car feels more stable over harsh roads now than before the brace. Bump steer has been reduced. Tracking is improved. Can these things be measured? I dont know and I dont care. What matters here is the feel I get from the car. I am satisfied with the CB's performance regardless of what others think. It was only $150 and less than a couple of hours to install. By far this is not the worst $150 I have spent. I consider it a wise investment. If it is just a placebo so be it. I like my car better with it than without it.

Testimonials from other CB users is the main reason I bought and installed the CB. Could so many people all be misled? Maybe but not likely. This is one example of why I am glad that I found the forum and became a member.

Paul

 

"Comparing apples to orcas"...

I think it should be pointed out that the standard (and sport, too) C4 Corvette suspension has changed over the life of the car. What was the sport or Z51 suspension one year, becomes the standard suspension the next year. This is an oversimplication and not always true, but a quick look through the 84-91 (only one I have) parts book shows the Z51 sway bars, springs, shocks, etc showing up as the following years' standard offering most of the time.

What that means is that some years are going to benefit more from additional bracing than other years (Scorp's pic of the Z51 frame reinforcements, shown some posts above, illustrate more variables) as well as compared to same years but different suspension option (Z51 vs standard).

The bottom line is: Your mileage may vary...Some more than others...

 

Measurements? We don't need no stinking measurements! :lol:

If you own one, you know the difference. That's all that matters. There are jillions of folks on these boards that will happily substantiate that for you. It might be interesting to split hairs over the situation, but the difference I felt the moment I installed to piece is already worth the $150 I paid for it. Now I have more perplexing factors to consume myself with beyond whether a 9 pound piece of metal will detract from the weight & balance of my car! :D Maybe I should consider not indulging myself with a heavy meal before race day. ;)

 

I race my C4 Vettes in SCCA Solo 2, plus do a number of track days each season. I manage to be competitive. I have kept track of what changes made what differences on my cars. Many changes I've made seemed to result in marignal or no improvement. Jason has driven both of my Vettes, but only with the Camber Bbrace installed. I will go to my grave 100% convinced that the single most cost-effective improvement to cornering on my roadster was the Camber Brace - period. The reduction in front end flex cited by several others is very evident in many AX situations and on a road course particularly over rumble strips, not to mention in daily street driving. The amount of improvement in my roadster appeared to be less. However, I know from driving both with and without in many AX and road course situations that it does provide a degree of improvement, even in my coupe. To me, any imrovement, no matter how slight is worth the ralatively low price of the Camber Brace. BTW, I do not believe it helps a coupe with the targa removed as some jhave said - and it's not designed for that.

Direct observations on front end flex => On my '96 roadster, the Camber Brace was a very tight fit - to the point of thinking "force it between the towers." I had the front end on jack stands while installing it. However, after thinking a minute, I lifted the front off the jack stands with a floor jack under the front crossmember. Viola - enough clearance for it to drop right into place. The measurable amount of flex was approximately the size of at 1/16" front end shim. It would not have gone in otherwise without driving it in with a small sledge.

I am convinced that the front end flex "prevented" is a positive contribution to maintaining a constant camber setting throughout the full range of suspension movement in all directions while the vehicle is being subjected to side forces. On strong transitions, like a slalom, I beleive it is providing a significant contirbution to stability and constant steering response.

JMHO, but I have seen the difference and I can demonstrate the flex.

BTW, on my coupe, the Camber Binstalled easily. However, someday when it isn't 104 in my garage like it was a while ago when I was working on a wiring problem, I will remove it and measure the flex amount going from full jack stand support to a center lift from the cross member.

Jason, it takes about 10 minutes to remvoe or install on our '89 coupes. I will pull mine and let you drive with it for a while. You can then (a) assess whether I'm off-base, or (b) whether it does provide an improvement by reducing flex in the front end.

One more thought - testing will be difficult for a top competive AX or road course driver in their own car. They became great by learning to drive their own car, with all of its strengths and weaknesses, to top itmes. Making a change in the handling of that car may take an extended "readjustment" period before a ture assesment of improvement is measurable.

 

here's my observations. first, i agree with larry that i have not seen any hard data to substantiate the benefits of the brace. to do so will require strain gauges and some accelerometers. it would certainly be great if someone can afford all that and afford the time to do some objective testing.

second, i agree that even 9 pounds is a lot of weight in the wrong place from the competetive racer's perspective.

that being said, as a camber brace user, i cannot ignore my butt sensor. much has been said about the stiffness of the chassis, spring mounts, and shock mounts. i think these three are pretty stiff as most have pointed out.

HOWEVER, i think the C4's (at least my 92's) achilles heel is the upper control arm mounts. these are relatively thin tabs of welded steel which have to transmit mainly reactive loads from lateral forces on the tire and/or off-center hits to the tire. now, i don't have any data to prove it, but i could probably whip out a theoretical deflection of these tabs when you encounter, say, a 3G bump off the centerline of the upright, and it will probably be significant.

the camber brace mounts directly on this thin tab at the front bolt. the main member is very close to the bolt, which should minimize it's deflection under load.

again, it would be nice to get some objective numbers, but detailed, localized, chassis rigidity measurements aren't as easy as jumping on a dyno. (there is a quick and dirty stiffness test one can do with some jack stands, weights, and some dial indicators though...)

for now, my butt sensor is happy with the results, and that's enough for me and my daily driver to keep the brace up there.

Cheers! :cheers:

 

>>>the camber brace mounts directly on this thin tab at the front bolt. the >>>main member is very close to the bolt, which should minimize it's >>>deflection under load.<<<

however.... what is on the other side of that "main member". just another thin tab.... so 2 thin tabs = 1 thick tab :D :D

I dunno. I bolted mine in a few weeks ago. the front is slightly stiffer.. but the test for me is track time next weekend. I think it comes down to this. my 96 is softly sprung, and it needs a good stiffening. Thats why I did it. anything can help the 96.

now my buddy with an 88 Z51 car is a professsional driving instructor. He tracks the car and said the 88 doesn't need it. It's plenty stiff from the factory and he sees no need for it.

I do agree about the weight. The new Z06 has a carbon fiber hood to shed 10.6 pounds.

not for nothing, but RD gives great customer service and is a great company to deal with. prompt, and professional service.

 

Okay, I'm in the process of installing the DRM extra grip w/ coilovers on my coupe. Also going to graft on a convert. X-brace underneath. After reading about the camber brace here & earlier I've decided now would be a good time to include one. Anyone interested in a group purchase to get the price down a little?

Thanks!
:cheers:

 

Got it.........Love it...........Enough said.

That's all that matters. ;)

 

ABSOLUTELY!!! I could not get my brace in until I unloaded the car by jacking up from the center crossmember.

It really doesnt claim to be a road racer or autocrossers secret weapon, but I think its positioned more towards improving the weaknesses on the older cars. Although you could add a lot of weight to your car if you added all of R&D's bars ( Cross-Bar, X-Bar, Camber BRace) you would be able to aggressively drive your car with the roof or top off on all kinds of road conditions.

Also, alot of these street cars are meticulously prepped like a purpose built trailer queen. They are high mileage, high-wear, multi-purpose high performance street cars. An old 85 with worn bushings, shocks, and springs will definitely ride differently by merely slapping on a Camber Brace. The Buttmeter reflects this across the forum.

Besides, Dave at R&D is such a good honest and helpful guy, I enjoy doing business with him. Even if the brace had no "Measurable" value (which I believe it does) it looks really trick under the hood, is a quality piece from a quality vendor, and just like a Type R sticker......having it on their is worth something in the psyche dept!!!

Its like beiing a 90 golfer, and buying a new driver, and shooting an 80. Then in a few weeks, you will be back in the 90s. There is a certain degree of HEAD GAMES in everything!

 

i agree. i am not a racer but i do that my 87 coupe is quieter and tighter since my camber brace arrived. these are things that may not bother a racer but on the road I prefer a tighter chassis.

I don't need an engineer to prove my car is quieter.

Paul
:reddevil

 

NavyVet:

I love that pic in your sig- the one on top of the car sweeping through a corner... I have to look twice every time I see it!

:thumbs: