more torque when I connect Moates ALDL tool....
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 935
Likes: 2
From: Beverly, NJ
more torque when I connect Moates ALDL tool....
I bought the USB Moates ALDL to serial converter. I also got the OBD1 cable. Now when I connect this thing, for some strange reason, I seem to have an increase in torque. The car has a noticable amount of low end torque. What would be a good explanation for this? Also, car wants to idle most of the time at 1000-1100 RPM while it is connected. Hopefully, one of you guys might know what is going on here. Thanks!
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 935
Likes: 2
From: Beverly, NJ
Originally Posted by MrNuke
Your car's in Diagnostic mode. Different timing settings, idle rpm, etc.. Useless for tuning/datalogging.. Same thing goes for my '870 (85 vette) ecm.
What is diagnostic mode for?? Is it bad to run it hard in diagnostic mode? I wish the car would run that hard without being in diagnostic mode.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: CT
Originally Posted by darkman5001
What is diagnostic mode for?? Is it bad to run it hard in diagnostic mode? I wish the car would run that hard without being in diagnostic mode.
In this mode, all information incorporated into a specific engine and ECM is obtainable. However, inthis mode the system operating charactersistics are modified as follows:
1) Closed loop timers are bypassed
2) EST (spark) is advanced
3) IAC will control engine idle to 1000rpm +\-50rpm
4) On some engines, canister purge soplenoid will be ebnabled
5) P/N restrict functions will be disabled (?????)
The worst part for me is the advanced timing in diagnostic mode causes lots of knocking and engine's not happy when I run it hard, either roll-on acceleration or WOT, not bad when cruising. Perhaps your engine is somehow finding the timing advance that comes with the diagnostic mode beneficial.
Last edited by 1986Z51; Nov 14, 2004 at 11:44 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 6,341
Likes: 1
From: Shelton CT
Originally Posted by 1986Z51
My '86 Helms manual describes the 10K diagnostic mode as
In this mode, all information incorporated into a specific engine and ECM is obtainable. However, inthis mode the system operating charactersistics are modified as follows:
1) Closed loop timers are bypassed
2) EST (spark) is advanced
3) IAC will control engine idle to 1000rpm +\-50rpm
4) On some engines, canister purge soplenoid will be ebnabled
5) P/N restrict functions will be disabled (?????)
The worst part for me is the advanced timing in diagnostic mode causes lots of knocking and engine's not happy when I run it hard, either roll-on acceleration or WOT, not bad when cruising. Perhaps your engine is somehow finding the timing advance that comes with the diagnostic mode beneficial.
In this mode, all information incorporated into a specific engine and ECM is obtainable. However, inthis mode the system operating charactersistics are modified as follows:
1) Closed loop timers are bypassed
2) EST (spark) is advanced
3) IAC will control engine idle to 1000rpm +\-50rpm
4) On some engines, canister purge soplenoid will be ebnabled
5) P/N restrict functions will be disabled (?????)
The worst part for me is the advanced timing in diagnostic mode causes lots of knocking and engine's not happy when I run it hard, either roll-on acceleration or WOT, not bad when cruising. Perhaps your engine is somehow finding the timing advance that comes with the diagnostic mode beneficial.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,324
Likes: 250
From: Summerland B.C. Canada
Originally Posted by 1986Z51
My '86 Helms manual describes the 10K diagnostic mode as
In this mode, all information incorporated into a specific engine and ECM is obtainable. However, inthis mode the system operating charactersistics are modified as follows:
1) Closed loop timers are bypassed
2) EST (spark) is advanced
3) IAC will control engine idle to 1000rpm +\-50rpm
4) On some engines, canister purge soplenoid will be ebnabled
5) P/N restrict functions will be disabled (?????)
The worst part for me is the advanced timing in diagnostic mode causes lots of knocking and engine's not happy when I run it hard, either roll-on acceleration or WOT, not bad when cruising. Perhaps your engine is somehow finding the timing advance that comes with the diagnostic mode beneficial.
In this mode, all information incorporated into a specific engine and ECM is obtainable. However, inthis mode the system operating charactersistics are modified as follows:
1) Closed loop timers are bypassed
2) EST (spark) is advanced
3) IAC will control engine idle to 1000rpm +\-50rpm
4) On some engines, canister purge soplenoid will be ebnabled
5) P/N restrict functions will be disabled (?????)
The worst part for me is the advanced timing in diagnostic mode causes lots of knocking and engine's not happy when I run it hard, either roll-on acceleration or WOT, not bad when cruising. Perhaps your engine is somehow finding the timing advance that comes with the diagnostic mode beneficial.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: CT
Originally Posted by AGENT 86
I don't know if this is the case with all software. On my 86 with datamaster running, will scan in open loop till I reach about 130F and then it goes closed loop. My idle is 750 (target idle for hypercrap chip) once it goes closed loop. This is using the simple 2 transistor cable I built. I can't remember what the case was when I ran moates.
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Expensive Corvettes Ever Sold on Bring A Trailer
Brett Foote
10 Things Every Corvette Owner Needs (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
8 Most "Only Corvette Owners Understand" Quirks and Problems
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Reasons the C6 Z06 is Still A Performance Benchmark After 20 Years
Joe Kucinski
How Much Horsepower Every Corvette Engine "LOST" in 1972
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 DOs and DON'Ts for Protecting Your Convertible Top!
Michael S. Palmer
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 935
Likes: 2
From: Beverly, NJ
Originally Posted by 1986Z51
My '86 Helms manual describes the 10K diagnostic mode as
In this mode, all information incorporated into a specific engine and ECM is obtainable. However, inthis mode the system operating charactersistics are modified as follows:
1) Closed loop timers are bypassed
2) EST (spark) is advanced
3) IAC will control engine idle to 1000rpm +\-50rpm
4) On some engines, canister purge soplenoid will be ebnabled
5) P/N restrict functions will be disabled (?????)
The worst part for me is the advanced timing in diagnostic mode causes lots of knocking and engine's not happy when I run it hard, either roll-on acceleration or WOT, not bad when cruising. Perhaps your engine is somehow finding the timing advance that comes with the diagnostic mode beneficial.
In this mode, all information incorporated into a specific engine and ECM is obtainable. However, inthis mode the system operating charactersistics are modified as follows:
1) Closed loop timers are bypassed
2) EST (spark) is advanced
3) IAC will control engine idle to 1000rpm +\-50rpm
4) On some engines, canister purge soplenoid will be ebnabled
5) P/N restrict functions will be disabled (?????)
The worst part for me is the advanced timing in diagnostic mode causes lots of knocking and engine's not happy when I run it hard, either roll-on acceleration or WOT, not bad when cruising. Perhaps your engine is somehow finding the timing advance that comes with the diagnostic mode beneficial.
Not sure, but very interesting. My car has always run super, probably because the engine is still new (maybe 15k on it.) But I was very suprised how she responded in diagnositc mode. I liked it very much. The only thing is a heard a slight noise from the rear end that didn't sound normal. It was only when I WOT it the first time, maybe from added torque, but not really sure. She pulls much harder within diagnostic mode. Maybe I need to advance timing so she runs like this all the time. What do the rest of you think?? As far as I know, timing is stock setting, or whatever the engine installer set it at.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: CT
Originally Posted by AGENT 86
it uses a 10k resistor across a & b
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: CT
Originally Posted by darkman5001
Maybe I need to advance timing so she runs like this all the time. What do the rest of you think?? As far as I know, timing is stock setting, or whatever the engine installer set it at.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,324
Likes: 250
From: Summerland B.C. Canada
Originally Posted by 1986Z51
Very interesting. Do you get a 1000rpm idle when cable is connected w/o Datamaster running? Does the idle drop to 750rpm only after Datamaster is running? Wonder if Datamaster makes the ECM go back to 'normal' mode even with the 10K resistor connected. That would explain a lot!
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,324
Likes: 250
From: Summerland B.C. Canada
Originally Posted by AGENT 86
I don't know if this is the case with all software. On my 86 with datamaster running, will scan in open loop till I reach about 130F and then it goes closed loop. My idle is 750 (target idle for hypercrap chip) once it goes closed loop. This is using the simple 2 transistor cable I built. I can't remember what the case was when I ran moates.
Last edited by AGENT 86; Nov 15, 2004 at 10:13 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 0
From: Lakeland fl
I have not verified this- but I read that it is possible to remove the 10k from a 165 ECM once the data transmission starts, and it will continue to send data at the high rate. It is also possible to alter the ALDL mode RPM in the chip. Rbob at thirdgen gave a description on how to accomplish this in a post a while back, but he always speaks (writes/types) in hex so its tough for me to understand. Searching thirdgen might bring it up.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 542
Likes: 1
From: Stuck in the 80's
FWIW, using Turbo-link, I get the higher RPM when the ECM connects, last about 2 seconds, then goes back to normal. Turbo-link also has two modes, normal and diagnostic, it is not recommended to drive the car hard in diagnostic mode. Normal mode is for scanning/recording data.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 0
From: Lakeland fl
Check out this link, it talks about the 10k thing.
http://thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=247135&highli ght=10k
OK, it didnt work as a link for me, but if you copy and paste it it works. I will try to dig up the part about the high idle too.
http://thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=247135&highli ght=10k
OK, it didnt work as a link for me, but if you copy and paste it it works. I will try to dig up the part about the high idle too.
Last edited by SBNova; Nov 15, 2004 at 02:00 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: CT
Originally Posted by AGENT 86
Here's a pic I had of my 86 scan using moates. Notice the idle and it's in closed loop.
It might be that I picked the wrong circuit to work with. I also found an old CF archive:http://forums.corvetteforum.com/arch.../t-228161.html
CF member Hendej may have hit the nail on the head -- his info should be captured in the Scan and Tune FAQ if a more robust bi-directional circuit is what's really needed to tickle the '165 ECM into the more useful 8192 baud mode. Hope to solder together something soon
and post my results. Also great info from the third gen folks, others have REALLY spent lots of time wrestling with this and I hope a new circuit does the trick rather than having to update .bin's...Darkman5001, apologies for hijacking this thread a little! The '165 scanning problem has bugged me (and others) for a while and lots of great info is finally flowing here. I'm thinking this will also help with your scanning.
Last edited by 1986Z51; Nov 15, 2004 at 06:04 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,324
Likes: 250
From: Summerland B.C. Canada
Here is a link to 2 transistor cable. Note that the aldl is from a lotus esprit,our cars use terminal "E" for data, 12 volts from cig lighter and a 10k resistor across "A" and "B"
http://www.andywhittaker.com/ecu/aldl_hardware_cont.htm
I have only used this cable with moates and datamaster on 165 ecm.
http://www.andywhittaker.com/ecu/aldl_hardware_cont.htm
I have only used this cable with moates and datamaster on 165 ecm.
Last edited by AGENT 86; Nov 15, 2004 at 07:57 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,324
Likes: 250
From: Summerland B.C. Canada
Originally Posted by 1986Z51
Thanks for the screenshot, most helpful! Do you have a link to the 2-transistor schematic you are using? It might be that I picked the wrong circuit to work with. I also found an old CF archive:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/arch.../t-228161.html
CF member Hendej may have hit the nail on the head -- his info should be captured in the Scan and Tune FAQ if a more robust bi-directional circuit is what's really needed to tickle the '165 ECM into the more useful 8192 baud mode. Hope to solder together something soon and post my results. Also great info from the third gen folks, others have REALLY spent lots of time wrestling with this and I hope a new circuit does the trick rather than having to update .bin's...
Darkman5001, apologies for hijacking this thread a little! The '165 scanning problem has bugged me (and others) for a while and lots of great info is finally flowing here. I'm thinking this will also help with your scanning.
It might be that I picked the wrong circuit to work with. I also found an old CF archive:http://forums.corvetteforum.com/arch.../t-228161.html
CF member Hendej may have hit the nail on the head -- his info should be captured in the Scan and Tune FAQ if a more robust bi-directional circuit is what's really needed to tickle the '165 ECM into the more useful 8192 baud mode. Hope to solder together something soon
and post my results. Also great info from the third gen folks, others have REALLY spent lots of time wrestling with this and I hope a new circuit does the trick rather than having to update .bin's...Darkman5001, apologies for hijacking this thread a little! The '165 scanning problem has bugged me (and others) for a while and lots of great info is finally flowing here. I'm thinking this will also help with your scanning.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: CT
Originally Posted by AGENT 86
Just read that archived link you posted. Maybe because I'm using a hypercrap chip that I can run at 8192 and have no idle issues. Not sure as I'm a total rookie with this new fangled stuff
Both give me the same effect with no luck at 8192 baud. I just got back from Radio Shack with the transistors in hand. I also took apart the ALDL cable I got on e-bay to see if I can re-use any parts. Nice job, etched circuit board, a few caps, a transistor, but also has that MAX-232 IC that doesn't seem to tickle the '165 hard enough as described in that CF archive article I found.