Do you know what this setup ran like when completed?

 

well you could stay with the standard 23 deg heads and I could help you dramaticlly increase the pressure drop across the valve. Probably go 8's in your car.

 

steve i ran your heads through a engine program useing the rest of my current specs i used your flow numbers and used a 255 cc intake port for your heads for a average and made the exhaust a tad bigger too
this is what it came up with

with your heads average hp from 4000 rpm to 7200 rpm went up 15 hp
with your heads peak hp went from my 6000 to your 6600 rpm and hp went up 50hp
with your heads average tq from 4000 rpm to 7200 rpm went up 10 ftlb
with your heads peak torqe stayed the same rpm at 5600 rpm which went up 15 ftlb
your heads were down on power from 4000-4600 rpm 10 hp and 25 ftlb tq
it broke even at about 5000 rpm and started to really pull above 5400rpm compared to mine

interesting from 1200 rpm -4000rpm it was allmost even giving up less than 10hp and 10 ftlb across the board
so in my opinion these heads look like they should make good power for you as long as that intake port stays 255 and under
now this was hitting peak hp at 6600 rpm and thats even with a short cam so if you wanted to throw more cam at it she will rev more not that i would want to take much above the 6600 rpm ceilling alllready that big crank and those heavy rods start getting real heavy past 7000 rpm fast

if you launched at 4500 to 5000 rpm and shifted at 6800 to 7000 rpm and if you can hook it and drive it you should run very low 10s to high ...9s


now the header issue is another whole post

 

Not yet.

The car's still in Cedar Hill having the Gen VII, I believe that's what it now has, programmed. The engine's running, but hasn't been dynoed yet.

Just a refresher; it has

BowTie block
Jesel shaft off-set rocker setup 1.55s; Iksy off-set lifters
CompCam mechanical roller 252/258 @ .050, .682/.682 lift on 106 (which is CRAZY!!!! to my way of thinking)
Custom JE's, Carrillo 6", internal 4" stroke, forged
Mono-blade TB (still FI)
Custom built 700R4 with Gear Vender
11:1; 2.15/1.625 Pro-Flows
2" coated inside and out headers
MSD and Jacobs ignition with porclean tipped plug wires
Road race pan with double kick-outs; Moroso blue-printed Hi-Volume
Complete Power Effects muffler/exhaust system with "X" pipe
Wide band 02 system
Victor Jr water pump; over-sized radiator
Derale oil and trans coolers (separate) both with their own fan

Machine work done by Reher and Morrison in Arlington

Engine Analyzer Pro reports 692 HP @ 6600; 598 torque @ 5700. It's in an 86 Vette.

Jake

 

I will call them Monday, and ask about what those #'s mean and how they are derived. I might look for someone closer to me to measure the intake runners

 

Very cool, thanks for the great info!! I agree 7K is as high as I want to go. The tq peak is interesting that it seems to be in the same place. It's also good to see that it isn't much higher than yours (your motors represent a very good benchmark ofr performance & drivability). Those RPMs, the tq value, and my driveline I think make it streetable. I have my eye on lightwieght internal setup from Crower (not the super light) to help with the RPM load and the shaft rockers should help out. I do not want to go real big with the cam, as you have shown, with great heads and nice stroke it just isn't necessary. I would give the heads what they want but no more and keep the LSA at 112 to smooth things out.

Hopefully the port isn't too big. I see that a 15* head Jake posted has 262. Most of Brodix 18* stuff seems to go from 244-254 so hopefully I'm close to the 255 you mentioned.

I was unaware of the extent to which the headers would need to be modified. This may be a concern. I'm holding onto the hope that because LT headers have alot of straight tube that the mods you talk about could be reasonable.

I appreciate you guys runnin numbers and brainstorming with me on these, we can learn a little. See if this 18* thing is worth it in terms of cost flow performance. I will need custom pistons, but I think that would have been true with a 23* head also, in this case.

 

well our pistons are je but they are off of the shelf flat tops but a flat top with your heads at 54 cc chambers put you over 13.5 to 1 which is very high you will need a custom made pitons should fall somewhere between $650-$900 depending on who you go with


your header situation is bad unless you know somebody that can weld very good and not charge you that much like i said use the adapter plates take your headers and wack 4-10 inches down and re weld them how much will that cost it all depends or you can go with stahll headers at about $1100 uncoated which they are in pa so you could take the car there and drop it off for a perfect fit


steve its going to cost you more than we had in our combos jesse asked me the same thing about useing the 18% stuff last year and i told him is he ready to spend an additionall $3000-$5000 to make it all work for maybe 30-50 hp if so then good i personally can not afford such a engine but some people can
if i had the money and willing to sink the money in to a small block i would build a tall deck 461 4.25 stroke with a set of canted valve heads yee haww for upwards of $15,000 on engine alone
but you could build a 600 inch bb chevy for under $10,000 that would make that 461 look silly

its all in what (YOU) want to do

 

ps i have a complete 434 that i would let go for the right price

 

Not meaning to add to the problems when opting for other than 23* heads, but here are a couple of more. I'm going from memory on this:

The MiniRam (as with most intakes) is designed for 23* heads. So when it was sat on the 15* Gerate Brodix heads, the water ports were UNCOVERED by more than 1/4"; closer to 3/8ths.

So we called Bob in CA and he said to send the intake back to him. He had cut it open a few times to do the porting, then welded it back up and he thought he's nailed the angle ;NOPE.

So he had to do a good bit of welding, adding aluminum to the flanges to extend the intake's water port openings to be able to cover the corresponding water port openings in the heads.

Back it came. What, six weeks to two months!?

This time around, the end gaps were huge. So back it went to CA for aluminum to be added to the china wall ends.

When we finally got it back, the gaps were still TOO large. So large that I was uncomfortable with trying to seal them with silicone.

So rather than send it BACK to CA for another few months, I went to my local ACE, bought some aluminum stock and cut out end pieces, using the cork end gaskets as a template.

I then drilled and tapped the block's china walls, dimpled them and drilled corresponding holds (with dimples on both sides) to the aluminum pieces I'd fashioned.

I then counter-sunk the holes, siliconed both sides, screwed on the fashioned pieces, using torx head bolts, and ground down the bolt heads to be flat. So far so good.

After all that, the intake had the normal gap at both ends.

HEADERS: Had to be custom made and even though I recommended the entire car be taken to the selected shop, Steve decided to buy a custom made set from a guy somewhere on the West Coast who claimed he had templates for an 86 with 15* heads.

Well, you guessed it, when they arrived the passenger side fit but the driver's side didn't, so it had to be sent back. A couple of pipes had to be replaced and this destroyed the inner and outer coating. The header builder wanted to recoat them, but this would have taken too long, so Steve had it sent back to us, making the promise that he'd have them recoated at a later date: NOT LIKELY!

Also, the 15* head angle required the A/C box to be cut and a new cover piece screwed/siliconed in place. This was because the box extended out too far to clear the header and head. This is about the same thing you'd have to do when installing a BB in a C4 body.

The driver's side valve cover had to be notched in the rear to clear the wiper motor and this was kinda tricky since the covers are the CompCams variety with the oiling tubes to keep the springs cool. So I had to be careful not to have it cut too far which would interfere with the oiling tubes, but far enough to clear the wiper motor.

There were several other issues directly associated with the difference in head angle, such as alternator and A/C braces, etc.

I could go on and on, but this engine has been a real NIGHTMARE!

Don't want to dissuade you; just want you to be prepared for some of the possible stumbling blocks.

Jake

 

Looks like I lost a post, connectivity is sucking tonight so I will paraphrase....

If I can't afford to go with Brodix CV SP 265 14* Canted valve 300cfm at .400 heads, then the added cost of fitting non 23* heads really isn't worth it at this time. Not when you can make 600hp or very close, without it.

(I wrote that BEFORE I saw Jake's post, thanks for the heads up Jake, you too Corky

Maybe I'll hold'em for a future project.....

 

steve thats why i bought my next race car i am tired at throwing money at this one allready

ventura which is a nova clone it will take any small block and or big block i want to stuff in between the fender wells

 

Almost forgot:

The heads called for both offset lifters AND offset rocker arms.

When I set up the valve train for a trial fit, the pushrods looked like that famous tower we see so often in photos - UNBELIEVEABLE!!

Isky was the only company that made lifters with the offsets I needed and even though I don't like their link bar arrangement, I had no choice, well, not without ditching the heads all together.

With open pressure approaching 700#, you definitely want your pushrods as straight as possible.

Then there was the issue of trying to get the rev kit to fit. Rev kits extend the life of the lifters by eliminating the pounding the roller end takes; no gap ever exists between the roller and lobe. The kit keeps a constant pressure on the lifter body.

Without one, you can consider mechanical roller lifters as a replacement item, expecially with the aggressive ramps on the cam in the engine and the spring pressure involved.

Could never find a bar that correctly aligned with the offset lifters and offset rockers. I was going to make one out of 1/4" aluminum, but by the time I'd gotten around to that point and had been arguing with Steve so much, I was burned out on that engine.

Just venting . .

Jake

 

Connection is pissin me off... try again here

Seriously a good idea, I think you race too much at a level this car is just not suited for. I see guys putting solid axles in and I just don't get it. At that point, buy a solid axle car and drive the Vette daily, it has so much to offer but is just not suited for constant low 10 and under drag racing. Of course if your made of money and your building a race car, tube chassis etc, then I can't argue throwing a vette body on it.

I plan to use this car for several diff't styles of racing and it is very well suited for that. I won't be the fastest at any, but I will enjoy them all. That's why you can't talk me into auto

You got BB taste in your mouth since Jesse's dad's car, don't ya?

How much for the 434? Are you sure some "jerk" named Dave isn't buying it???

 

That's exactly what I did when, some years back, I installed a BB 468 with a Turbo 400 in a Buick SkyHawk (Monza clone).

Found everything I needed for the swap in the catalogs, including headers that bolted right up and a glass hood with a L-88 scoop.

Talk about GREAT power to weight ratio!!!

Jake

 

Jake,

Please tell me this engine is not going the car that has been painted three times in what, the last year

I think many of us thank you for being honest about your troubles, it is and eye opener and good warning to those like me that get blinded by these flow #'s on non 23* heads. They are not for the faint of heart or wallet....yet.

I hope it runs great for you guys, reaaaaaaalllll great!

 

How much for the 434? Are you sure some "jerk" named Dave isn't buying it???

Hey, I resemble that comment!!! Hey Corky, you sellin'? If you haven't bought my parts, we can deal!!!!!!!!

Steve, either way.. I think we are going to have two of the nastiest C4s in the D.C. area

 

That's the plan!! Street cars anyway...Wheelsup is in Bowie and Hookedup is in Vienna, those guys are flyin at the track.

Let me know how the build is going and we will get together when you get your car back.

 

No, the 434 NightMare is in a friend's 86 Vette.

LOL, and I only scratched the surface with the problems. How about wrist pins that were manufactured just a hair too long preventing the NASCAR retainers from fitting.

Here's another one; the mucho expensive CompCams rubber timing set woiuldn't fit behind the timing "chain" cover, so $$$ for a new cover from CompCams, which, by the way interfered with the installation of the Edelbrock Victor Jr water pump. Pump couldn't be bolted to the block.

Aftermarket pump that pulled too much voltage

So after spending all that $$$, it was back to a True Roller setup.

You're right about the cost too. If you could see the receipts from all the parts that were delivered to my home you'd faint!

Last time I did the math it was over $25,000 and that didn't include the Gen VII, distributor, vacuum pump, porting costs, etc., etc.

By comparison, painting my car three times (soon to be four) is a drop in the bucket.

Jake

Jake