Engine build for boost
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Engine build for boost
For TT setup eventually wanting to run 16-18 lbs boost would it be better to get a complete shortblock, or would an all forged rotating assembly be just as good? What are the pros and cons? 
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,786
Likes: 6
From: Lafayette Colorado
For that amount of boost definately:
froged crankshaft
forged connecting rods
arp rod bolts
forged thermo coated pistons
arp head studs
arp main studs
at least o-ringed heads( o-ringed block too is a good idea )
lq4 iron block would also be a good idea for extra cylinder wall strength
Keith
froged crankshaft
forged connecting rods
arp rod bolts
forged thermo coated pistons
arp head studs
arp main studs
at least o-ringed heads( o-ringed block too is a good idea )
lq4 iron block would also be a good idea for extra cylinder wall strength
Keith
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,238
Likes: 0
From: Lakeland, Center of Florida Fl
I have heard they are solid to around 1000rwhp. But forging the entire with forged crank is your best idea. You also better get a FULLY built tranny to handle that much power. Good luck
Jon
Jon
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 1
From: Albuquerque NM
The only thing different between a whole forged shortblock and an all forged rotating assembly would be the block. That much boost should net you 800-900 rwhp so you at minimum should forge everything but the crank. Also the aluminum block will hold up just fine. People have pushed those well past that HP level already. You are going to need a good tuner most importantly.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,238
Likes: 0
From: Lakeland, Center of Florida Fl
Crahsed94 builds them for a good deal.
There is also Rockland Standard gear with trannys that are built for the Rolex 24 and such. They are the only repair shop certified to redo the Tremec T56. Carbon Fiber parts and more. Standard 800-900hp tranny is around 3900 or the super built one for around 6k. I can help you out on a friendship basis if you want a better price. I am friends with the owner.
Jon
There is also Rockland Standard gear with trannys that are built for the Rolex 24 and such. They are the only repair shop certified to redo the Tremec T56. Carbon Fiber parts and more. Standard 800-900hp tranny is around 3900 or the super built one for around 6k. I can help you out on a friendship basis if you want a better price. I am friends with the owner.
Jon
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Drifting
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by flynbludream
The only thing different between a whole forged shortblock and an all forged rotating assembly would be the block. That much boost should net you 800-900 rwhp so you at minimum should forge everything but the crank. Also the aluminum block will hold up just fine. People have pushed those well past that HP level already. You are going to need a good tuner most importantly.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,391
Likes: 3
From: Chandler AZ
Couple of things... in my opinion... and I'll pose a few questions in an effort to strike up an educational discussion based on experiences. It would be REAL interesting if we could get some of the supporting vendors to chime in with their opinions based on experiences.
16-18 psi is pushing the limits of street reliability. Obviously opinions will vary on this because enthusiasts interpretation and/or expectations of street performance reliability can vary... WIDELY! If you are building a race car then reliability pretty much becomes a moot point...
I've seen 20-22psi start pushing coolant through the head gaskets... on 6L iron blocks, LS1/LS6 aluminum blocks, factory GM head castings and AFR heads, with GM MLS gaskets and o-ringed heads, main stud girdles that tie the whole bottom end together better... even with ARP head studs of course. If you want to operate near that bandwidth then expect to have on hand a couple pair of head gaskets... and get to know a tow truck driver well. At least up until sometime in 04 the head bolts reached deep into the main webbing of the block. Questions have arisen as to how strong the main webbing is as far as rear wheel horsepower is concerned on the GENIII production block and its ability to hold the heads down... with only 4 bolts per cylinder. At what point does the main webbing and/or the block start to morf? What are the REAL WORLD strength differences between the iron block and aluminum block? I've seen heads lift on both at near the same boost... yet all I hear is how much stronger the iron block is. Are the head bolts to small? Do the standard part number ARP studs REALLY stretch? Anybody got proof of a stretched aftermarket head stud? All it would take is a before and after measurement of length. I've heard of people machining their blocks to accept larger head studs? Is this the way to go? When boring and tapping for 1/2" studs is the main webbing structure, especially at the front/rear of the block where the bolt/stud bosses do not have 360 degree's of casting support, being compromised?
If one wants the highest power possible yet have little to know worry when does the C5R block become mandatory? Are people seeing heads lift on the C5R block with its stronger aluminum, reinforced main webbing, and larger head studs? Is this all a matter of physics? 4 bolts only hold a certain amount of pressure across a given area and thats it?
At this point I'd stick with your stock block... or obtain another LS1/LS6 block (01-04E). Iron blocks are much cheaper and the weight gain is somewhere around 65lbs if I remember correctly. But if you plan on competing in a professional race enviroment then weight, or lack there of it , is key. I have not heard a whole lot of feedback on forced induction on the newer GENIII (iron and aluminum) and GENIV LS2 blocks with their shorter head studs. It would be interesting to see some feedback on that.
The stock crank is not breaking in high powered cars... buying a forged crank is good piece of mind but not necessary unless you want/need the extra stroke for bigger cubes. Forged rods are necessary after about 550rwhp. Go with 6.125 forged small block chevy rods... they are cheaper, in some cases ALOT cheaper, than the LS1 specific aftermarket rods. JE makes a fantastic piston... so does Diamond. I prefer JE because I tried them first and they have never let me or my customers down. I like JE rings and Total Seal. Both work well in forced induction applications. I like Clevite H series bearings... others like other manu bearings for their own reasons. Clevite has never let me or my customers down. I run Clevite H series in my own vette. Last have an experienced GENIII machinest do your block work. Have them explain to you the subtleties of assembling a performance shortblock as compared to a stock power rated block. Ask questions on bearing clearances. Note that if your machinest likes building loose high performance engines expect oil pressure levels to be lower on average than a stock TIGHT engine.
Bill
16-18 psi is pushing the limits of street reliability. Obviously opinions will vary on this because enthusiasts interpretation and/or expectations of street performance reliability can vary... WIDELY! If you are building a race car then reliability pretty much becomes a moot point...
I've seen 20-22psi start pushing coolant through the head gaskets... on 6L iron blocks, LS1/LS6 aluminum blocks, factory GM head castings and AFR heads, with GM MLS gaskets and o-ringed heads, main stud girdles that tie the whole bottom end together better... even with ARP head studs of course. If you want to operate near that bandwidth then expect to have on hand a couple pair of head gaskets... and get to know a tow truck driver well. At least up until sometime in 04 the head bolts reached deep into the main webbing of the block. Questions have arisen as to how strong the main webbing is as far as rear wheel horsepower is concerned on the GENIII production block and its ability to hold the heads down... with only 4 bolts per cylinder. At what point does the main webbing and/or the block start to morf? What are the REAL WORLD strength differences between the iron block and aluminum block? I've seen heads lift on both at near the same boost... yet all I hear is how much stronger the iron block is. Are the head bolts to small? Do the standard part number ARP studs REALLY stretch? Anybody got proof of a stretched aftermarket head stud? All it would take is a before and after measurement of length. I've heard of people machining their blocks to accept larger head studs? Is this the way to go? When boring and tapping for 1/2" studs is the main webbing structure, especially at the front/rear of the block where the bolt/stud bosses do not have 360 degree's of casting support, being compromised?
If one wants the highest power possible yet have little to know worry when does the C5R block become mandatory? Are people seeing heads lift on the C5R block with its stronger aluminum, reinforced main webbing, and larger head studs? Is this all a matter of physics? 4 bolts only hold a certain amount of pressure across a given area and thats it?
At this point I'd stick with your stock block... or obtain another LS1/LS6 block (01-04E). Iron blocks are much cheaper and the weight gain is somewhere around 65lbs if I remember correctly. But if you plan on competing in a professional race enviroment then weight, or lack there of it , is key. I have not heard a whole lot of feedback on forced induction on the newer GENIII (iron and aluminum) and GENIV LS2 blocks with their shorter head studs. It would be interesting to see some feedback on that.
The stock crank is not breaking in high powered cars... buying a forged crank is good piece of mind but not necessary unless you want/need the extra stroke for bigger cubes. Forged rods are necessary after about 550rwhp. Go with 6.125 forged small block chevy rods... they are cheaper, in some cases ALOT cheaper, than the LS1 specific aftermarket rods. JE makes a fantastic piston... so does Diamond. I prefer JE because I tried them first and they have never let me or my customers down. I like JE rings and Total Seal. Both work well in forced induction applications. I like Clevite H series bearings... others like other manu bearings for their own reasons. Clevite has never let me or my customers down. I run Clevite H series in my own vette. Last have an experienced GENIII machinest do your block work. Have them explain to you the subtleties of assembling a performance shortblock as compared to a stock power rated block. Ask questions on bearing clearances. Note that if your machinest likes building loose high performance engines expect oil pressure levels to be lower on average than a stock TIGHT engine.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Reid; Apr 29, 2005 at 08:30 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 8,862
Likes: 85
From: PA
St. Jude Donor '08
Originally Posted by Bill Reid
Couple of things... in my opinion... and I'll pose a few questions in an effort to strike up an educational discussion based on experiences. It would be REAL interesting if we could get some of the supporting vendors to chime in with their opinions based on experiences.
16-18 psi is pushing the limits of street reliability. Obviously opinions will vary on this because enthusiasts interpretation and/or expectations of street performance reliability can vary... WIDELY! If you are building a race car then reliability pretty much becomes a moot point...
I've seen 20-22psi start pushing coolant through the head gaskets... on 6L iron blocks, LS1/LS6 aluminum blocks, factory GM head castings and AFR heads, with GM MLS gaskets and o-ringed heads, main stud girdles that tie the whole bottom end together better... even with ARP head studs of course. If you want to operate near that bandwidth then expect to have on hand a couple pair of head gaskets... and get to know a tow truck driver well. At least up until sometime in 04 the head bolts reached deep into the main webbing of the block. Questions have arisen as to how strong the main webbing is as far as rear wheel horsepower is concerned on the GENIII production block and its ability to hold the heads down... with only 4 bolts per cylinder. At what point does the main webbing and/or the block start to morf? What are the REAL WORLD strength differences between the iron block and aluminum block? I've seen heads lift on both at near the same boost... yet all I hear is how much stronger the iron block is. Are the head bolts to small? Do the standard part number ARP studs REALLY stretch? Anybody got proof of a stretched aftermarket head stud? All it would take is a before and after measurement of length. I've heard of people machining their blocks to accept larger head studs? Is this the way to go? When boring and tapping for 1/2" studs is the main webbing structure, especially at the front/rear of the block where the bolt/stud bosses do not have 360 degree's of casting support, being compromised?
If one wants the highest power possible yet have little to know worry when does the C5R block become mandatory? Are people seeing heads lift on the C5R block with its stronger aluminum, reinforced main webbing, and larger head studs? Is this all a matter of physics? 4 bolts only hold a certain amount of pressure across a given area and thats it?
At this point I'd stick with your stock block... or obtain another LS1/LS6 block (01-04E). Iron blocks are much cheaper and the weight gain is somewhere around 65lbs if I remember correctly. But if you plan on competing in a professional race enviroment then weight, or lack there of it , is key. I have not heard a whole lot of feedback on forced induction and the newer GENIII (iron and aluminum) and GENIV LS2 blocks with their shorter head studs. It would be interesting to see seome feedback on that.
The stock crank is not breaking in high powered cars... buying a forged crank is good piece of mind but not necessary unless you want/need the extra stroke for bigger cubes. Forged rods are necessary after about 550rwhp. Go with 6.125 forged small block chevy rods... they are cheaper, in some cases ALOT cheaper, than the LS1 specific aftermarket rods. JE makes a fantastic piston... so does Diamond. I prefer JE because I tried them first and they have never let me or my customers down. I like JE rings and Total Seal. Both work well in forced induction applications. I like Clevite H series bearings... others like other manu bearings for their own reasons. Clevite has never let me or my customers down. I run Clevite H series in my own vette. Last have an experienced GENIII machinest do your block work. Have them explain to you the subtleties of assembling a performance shortblock as compared to a stock power rated block. Ask questions on bearing clearances. Note that if your machinest likes building loose high performance engines expect oil pressure levels to be lower on average than a stock TIGHT engine.
Bill
16-18 psi is pushing the limits of street reliability. Obviously opinions will vary on this because enthusiasts interpretation and/or expectations of street performance reliability can vary... WIDELY! If you are building a race car then reliability pretty much becomes a moot point...
I've seen 20-22psi start pushing coolant through the head gaskets... on 6L iron blocks, LS1/LS6 aluminum blocks, factory GM head castings and AFR heads, with GM MLS gaskets and o-ringed heads, main stud girdles that tie the whole bottom end together better... even with ARP head studs of course. If you want to operate near that bandwidth then expect to have on hand a couple pair of head gaskets... and get to know a tow truck driver well. At least up until sometime in 04 the head bolts reached deep into the main webbing of the block. Questions have arisen as to how strong the main webbing is as far as rear wheel horsepower is concerned on the GENIII production block and its ability to hold the heads down... with only 4 bolts per cylinder. At what point does the main webbing and/or the block start to morf? What are the REAL WORLD strength differences between the iron block and aluminum block? I've seen heads lift on both at near the same boost... yet all I hear is how much stronger the iron block is. Are the head bolts to small? Do the standard part number ARP studs REALLY stretch? Anybody got proof of a stretched aftermarket head stud? All it would take is a before and after measurement of length. I've heard of people machining their blocks to accept larger head studs? Is this the way to go? When boring and tapping for 1/2" studs is the main webbing structure, especially at the front/rear of the block where the bolt/stud bosses do not have 360 degree's of casting support, being compromised?
If one wants the highest power possible yet have little to know worry when does the C5R block become mandatory? Are people seeing heads lift on the C5R block with its stronger aluminum, reinforced main webbing, and larger head studs? Is this all a matter of physics? 4 bolts only hold a certain amount of pressure across a given area and thats it?
At this point I'd stick with your stock block... or obtain another LS1/LS6 block (01-04E). Iron blocks are much cheaper and the weight gain is somewhere around 65lbs if I remember correctly. But if you plan on competing in a professional race enviroment then weight, or lack there of it , is key. I have not heard a whole lot of feedback on forced induction and the newer GENIII (iron and aluminum) and GENIV LS2 blocks with their shorter head studs. It would be interesting to see seome feedback on that.
The stock crank is not breaking in high powered cars... buying a forged crank is good piece of mind but not necessary unless you want/need the extra stroke for bigger cubes. Forged rods are necessary after about 550rwhp. Go with 6.125 forged small block chevy rods... they are cheaper, in some cases ALOT cheaper, than the LS1 specific aftermarket rods. JE makes a fantastic piston... so does Diamond. I prefer JE because I tried them first and they have never let me or my customers down. I like JE rings and Total Seal. Both work well in forced induction applications. I like Clevite H series bearings... others like other manu bearings for their own reasons. Clevite has never let me or my customers down. I run Clevite H series in my own vette. Last have an experienced GENIII machinest do your block work. Have them explain to you the subtleties of assembling a performance shortblock as compared to a stock power rated block. Ask questions on bearing clearances. Note that if your machinest likes building loose high performance engines expect oil pressure levels to be lower on average than a stock TIGHT engine.
Bill
very nice bill
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 96,496
Likes: 82
St. Jude Donor '03 through '17
Stock crank is good to 1,000 HP.
I just had a 382 stroker built with:
LS6 Alum. block.
Callie forged stroker crank
Callie rods
Diamond pistons
Total seal gaskets
AFR 225 heads (gotta love the deck on these bad boys)
GM GML gaskets
All ARP hardware.
No results are in as of yet but were expecting to turn this over by mid week @ 14 psi with a TTix kit.
Bill Reid pretty much called it like it is in his post above.
I just had a 382 stroker built with:
LS6 Alum. block.
Callie forged stroker crank
Callie rods
Diamond pistons
Total seal gaskets
AFR 225 heads (gotta love the deck on these bad boys)
GM GML gaskets
All ARP hardware.
No results are in as of yet but were expecting to turn this over by mid week @ 14 psi with a TTix kit.
Bill Reid pretty much called it like it is in his post above.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
So can save the money on a crank and block and get forged lunait or callies rods and diamond thermo coated pistons and be ok for maybe 10-12 lbs? Would there be any benefit to have the stock crank balanced/blueprinted?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,931
Likes: 2
From: Tx
Originally Posted by MissZ06
So can save the money on a crank and block and get forged lunait or callies rods and diamond thermo coated pistons and be ok for maybe 10-12 lbs? Would there be any benefit to have the stock crank balanced/blueprinted?