505/436 out of a 346 which orginally had another major corvette vendor heads. 
AFRs bench flowed
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,957
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From: Albuquerque NM
Who did your original 6.0 heads? It sounds to me like your local bench is reading way low. I don't see how a stage 3 6.0 head which is the same design as an LS6 head can only flow 258@.600. A good stage 3 head should put you at least around 300 cfm at .600.
I would be more interested in the delta of +30cfm on the same bench over a stage 3 head than anything else. A lot of people would kill for that delta on a stage 3.
I would be more interested in the delta of +30cfm on the same bench over a stage 3 head than anything else. A lot of people would kill for that delta on a stage 3.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Colorado Springs CO
Originally Posted by flynbludream
Who did your original 6.0 heads? It sounds to me like your local bench is reading way low. I don't see how a stage 3 6.0 head which is the same design as an LS6 head can only flow 258@.600. A good stage 3 head should put you at least around 300 cfm at .600.
I would be more interested in the delta of +30cfm on the same bench over a stage 3 head than anything else. A lot of people would kill for that delta on a stage 3.
I would be more interested in the delta of +30cfm on the same bench over a stage 3 head than anything else. A lot of people would kill for that delta on a stage 3.
The heads were both flowed on the same machine. not sure about other flow machines or if this one flowed low or my altitude had any impact, but to compare my old 6.0L vs the AFR out of the box on this machine at my location. And to see what you guys thought of the numbers/.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: San Antonio TX
1 flow bench/shop does not mean anything relative to the absolute flow #'s the important thing is the delta between the stage 3 6.0L heads and the AFR's on the same equipment at the same time (if we asume that the 6.0L heads are good) and it would be interesting to see the port volume on the 6.0L.
The way I look at it the cost of the AFR's is less than the cost of a stage 3 ported head + core cost and flows > 10% more as well as having a thicker deck and possably lower port volumes, Whats not to like?
After seeing this indipendent post/test I'm even more impressed by the AFR's
More Than Zero
The way I look at it the cost of the AFR's is less than the cost of a stage 3 ported head + core cost and flows > 10% more as well as having a thicker deck and possably lower port volumes, Whats not to like?
After seeing this indipendent post/test I'm even more impressed by the AFR's
More Than Zero
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: State of Confusion.
Originally Posted by kumar75150
port velocity is a bunch of bull****
gimme a head that flows 340 at 240cc instead of one that flows 305 at 205cc and we will see who goes faster
gimme a head that flows 340 at 240cc instead of one that flows 305 at 205cc and we will see who goes faster
to some extent. If you're not racing, and have a smaller cam, and doing mainly street driving (not taking advantage of the Higher flow/RPM potential of the bigger head), then I'd give points to the smaller head. It's more about throttle response than top end,thrown in jail, ticket getting powerThe story changes once you go to the track (and use a bigger cam).
I'm not trying to argue, just giving my opinion.
NCM, WSCC &amp;amp; SCC Member
Joined: Oct 2002
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Originally Posted by kumar75150
port velocity is a bunch of bull****
gimme a head that flows 340 at 240cc instead of one that flows 305 at 205cc and we will see who goes faster
gimme a head that flows 340 at 240cc instead of one that flows 305 at 205cc and we will see who goes faster
In fact, an analogy to your point. I would rather take a, almost as fast, two pound crp(like I did this morning) instead of a faster, one and a half pound crp. As you you get older, the sad part is you really begin to enjoy your morning crp, particularly if it is really good. It is the only place I get peace and quite the whole day. lol.
to go do, you know what.
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Drifting
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: San Antonio TX
Originally Posted by kumar75150
port velocity is a bunch of bull****
gimme a head that flows 340 at 240cc instead of one that flows 305 at 205cc and we will see who goes faster
gimme a head that flows 340 at 240cc instead of one that flows 305 at 205cc and we will see who goes faster
that setup at the track is king as a DD it sucks and It would take a very un-street-frendly cam to take advantage of the heads. but in this case we are talking about a head that flows better AND has a smaller port at the same time it is cheaper to put on your car, so again whats not to like?
In short I do not see the down side to the AFR's
1. at $2400 or so with no core charge where a stage 3 head cost that + a core charge.
2. everyone is dissing them because they only flow 30 cfm better than other stage 3 heads (on the same test stand on the same day)
3. there is more deck thickness which only helps the head stay sealed in boosted apps.
4. as far as I know these are doing all of this and keeping the port volume smaller.
I think that the real ? behind this is why do ported heads cost so much?
I could see us having this conversation if stage 3 heads were costing $1200 - $1800 total out the door, but that is not the case.
JMO
More Than Zero
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Oak Park CA
Originally Posted by M_T_0
1. at $2400 or so with no core charge where a stage 3 head cost that + a core charge.
2. everyone is dissing them because they only flow 30 cfm better than other stage 3 heads (on the same test stand on the same day)
3. there is more deck thickness which only helps the head stay sealed in boosted apps.
4. as far as I know these are doing all of this and keeping the port volume smaller.
2. everyone is dissing them because they only flow 30 cfm better than other stage 3 heads (on the same test stand on the same day)
3. there is more deck thickness which only helps the head stay sealed in boosted apps.
4. as far as I know these are doing all of this and keeping the port volume smaller.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: State of Confusion.
Originally Posted by #001 2001 Z06
In fact, an analogy to your point. I would rather take a, almost as fast, two pound crp(like I did this morning) instead of a faster, one and a half pound crp. As you you get older, the sad part is you really begin to enjoy your morning crp, particularly if it is really good. It is the only place I get peace and quite the whole day. lol.
to go do, you know what.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,587
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From: Colorado Springs CO
Originally Posted by #001 2001 Z06
Kumar, I agree. The track results speak for themselves 7,8,9,10's. All the O2 in the chamber is also not used, "instantaniously," but over time.
In fact, an analogy to your point. I would rather take a, almost as fast, two pound crp(like I did this morning) instead of a faster, one and a half pound crp. As you you get older, the sad part is you really begin to enjoy your morning crp, particularly if it is really good. It is the only place I get peace and quite the whole day. lol.
to go do, you know what.
In fact, an analogy to your point. I would rather take a, almost as fast, two pound crp(like I did this morning) instead of a faster, one and a half pound crp. As you you get older, the sad part is you really begin to enjoy your morning crp, particularly if it is really good. It is the only place I get peace and quite the whole day. lol.
to go do, you know what.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,418
Likes: 1
From: Chicagoland Area IL
Originally Posted by #001 2001 Z06
In fact, an analogy to your point. I would rather take a, almost as fast, two pound crp(like I did this morning) instead of a faster, one and a half pound crp. As you you get older, the sad part is you really begin to enjoy your morning crp, particularly if it is really good. It is the only place I get peace and quite the whole day. lol.
to go do, you know what.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,923
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From: San Antonio TX
Originally Posted by korvetkeith
Port velocity is much more important in carb applications in order to keep the air-fuel mixture suspended. I think LS1s have already proven that big ports don't hamper them much if at all.
the point is that they cost less, flow more, produce more power and have more room to be ported to 250cc's (if that is what you want) to flow even more that the other stage 3 heads out there.
the statment that port vel. is not important in the LT/LS1 is missleading, It is less Important in the port Injected engines than it was in the carb engines but it still makes a diff. it also has an effect on detonation due to the turblent flame front. But then its not like us FI guys have any problems with detonation now is it?
I do not own AFR's (yet) but I keep seeing people diss them and there reasons just dont make sense to me. To me If I had a good set of ported heads I would keep them, but if I am buying new there is not a ? about which I should buy.
More Than Zero
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,112
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From: Peoria IL
Originally Posted by M_T_0
this is still beside the point.
the statment that port vel. is not important in the LT/LS1 is missleading, It is less Important in the port Injected engines than it was in the carb engines but it still makes a diff. it also has an effect on detonation due to the turblent flame front. But then its not like us FI guys have any problems with detonation now is it?
the statment that port vel. is not important in the LT/LS1 is missleading, It is less Important in the port Injected engines than it was in the carb engines but it still makes a diff. it also has an effect on detonation due to the turblent flame front. But then its not like us FI guys have any problems with detonation now is it?
The turbulence (I'll assume you meant to say turbulent) in the cylinder due to the head will be affected by the valve size and the volume of air a head flows. If two heads have the same size intake valve and flow the same cfm of air, then the velocity of the air going into the cylinder will be the same regardless of the intake velocity upstream of the intake valve.
Futhermore, turbulence in the combustion chamber is more affected by the chamber and piston design and their quench height. And those things come into affect right when it counts, just before the mixture ignites.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,923
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From: San Antonio TX
Originally Posted by korvetkeith
Sorry, if the discussion is whether or not AFRs are a good head then I'd say yes.
The turbulence (I'll assume you meant to say turbulent) in the cylinder due to the head will be affected by the valve size and the volume of air a head flows. If two heads have the same size intake valve and flow the same cfm of air, then the velocity of the air going into the cylinder will be the same regardless of the intake velocity upstream of the intake valve.
Futhermore, turbulence in the combustion chamber is more affected by the chamber and piston design and their quench height. And those things come into affect right when it counts, just before the mixture ignites.
The turbulence (I'll assume you meant to say turbulent) in the cylinder due to the head will be affected by the valve size and the volume of air a head flows. If two heads have the same size intake valve and flow the same cfm of air, then the velocity of the air going into the cylinder will be the same regardless of the intake velocity upstream of the intake valve.
Futhermore, turbulence in the combustion chamber is more affected by the chamber and piston design and their quench height. And those things come into affect right when it counts, just before the mixture ignites.
my point was that on this post the AFR's were getting dissed because they ONLY flow 30 cfm better than a set of stage 3 heads.
More Than Zero
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Regardless of airflow numbers, I can always tune an AFR head leaner and with more timing. This alone makes the head worth the price.
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From: http://www.mphparts.com 800-364-1975
Originally Posted by Andy@AandACorvette
Regardless of airflow numbers, I can always tune an AFR head leaner and with more timing. This alone makes the head worth the price.