Home made STS Kit?
Race Director
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 12,725
Likes: 14
From: ECS : WTF did you break now and HTF did you break it this time
Originally Posted by DOUG @ ECS
I'm sorry, but this is the "import want to be" post I have ever seen on this forum. Of course after Rick spent hours upon hours to design the kit it is easier to copy it afterwards. Sell your Vette, buy a Honda, and copy one of those electric S/C kits for it. Then you can save even more money.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 0
From: Northern VA
Originally Posted by #001 2001 Z06
How were you going to make the rear mount wiring harness?
STS does a have rear mount patent.
STS does have patent on its oil system.
The STS Corvette instructions have a 2004 copyright.
STS does a have rear mount patent.
STS does have patent on its oil system.
The STS Corvette instructions have a 2004 copyright.
As long as he ain't trying to sell them, it's all good.
Pro
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
From: PA
Originally Posted by FRCTony
I'm not a lawyer (nor did I sleep at Holliday Inn last night), but I don't think patents apply to some guy who makes his own "copy" of a turbo kit.
As long as he ain't trying to sell them, it's all good.
As long as he ain't trying to sell them, it's all good.
BUT, I would recommend buying an engineered system, IMHO. The STS kit is awesome in design, quality, and fit. I'm sure the other respected FI systems are also. I think for a one-off kit, you will run into too many headaches and problems for it to be worth saving a few hundred dollars, if you even do fabricate it for less.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,851
Likes: 1
From: San Bruno Ca
Originally Posted by EnglandGreen
No, it's not about deeper wallets, it's about innate talent. And by that, I am not disparaging your own skills, just making a observation.
You state that you do not fab stuff yourself, you farm it out. This suggests that others will be, in effect, building the kit for you.
If that is the case, it will be A> Much cheaper and B> Much less frustrating to just buy a genuine STS kit.
If you had a machine shop - or direct unlimited access to a machine shop, along with the requisite skills, talent, time and patience - I would say "go for it and please post lots of pics of your progress"
Let me put this a different way; if you were into superchargers - you might look at the ECS Paxton or the A&A Vortech kits and say to yourself "they are just a few brackets and a couple of tensioners" right??? Wrong.
What you are paying for - besides after sales support - is their R&D. The ECS & A&A kits bolt on and run effortlessly, flawlessly, without fanfare or issues for thousands of miles on stock engines. Same with the STS kit and most of the well designed TT kits.
That R&D is not cheap, nor is it easy, no is it fast. An example is the (soon to be released) APS TT kit. They have been testing their kit for months - refining, honing, getting all the kinks worked out....
And that's just testing. Who knows how long they spent on the initial R&D, the deep research and design that got them this far where they are almost ready to offer it to the public.
A Paxton or Vortech head unit is circa $2000 retail. Some people look at that and think "why should I pay $5k+ or $6k+ for something that costs $2k?" But what about the "ancillary" parts? The J-Tube, BOV, FMIC, tensioners, routing, alignment, relocation, oiling etc.. etc. etc. etc. etc.
And what about the after sales service? The guarantee (for want of a better word) and the reliability?
Building a kit is much more than buying two Garrett turbos and some piping, throwing it together and seeing how it works.
I, personally, do not have the skill, talent, will, know how, knowledge - call it whatever you like - but I know my limitations, and I do not have the ability to build a forced induction kit from scratch. I tried it in the 80s and the results were very mixed. I have since learned my limitations.
So, like I said - "Good luck". I meant it with absolutely no heat.
EG
You state that you do not fab stuff yourself, you farm it out. This suggests that others will be, in effect, building the kit for you.
If that is the case, it will be A> Much cheaper and B> Much less frustrating to just buy a genuine STS kit.
If you had a machine shop - or direct unlimited access to a machine shop, along with the requisite skills, talent, time and patience - I would say "go for it and please post lots of pics of your progress"
Let me put this a different way; if you were into superchargers - you might look at the ECS Paxton or the A&A Vortech kits and say to yourself "they are just a few brackets and a couple of tensioners" right??? Wrong.
What you are paying for - besides after sales support - is their R&D. The ECS & A&A kits bolt on and run effortlessly, flawlessly, without fanfare or issues for thousands of miles on stock engines. Same with the STS kit and most of the well designed TT kits.
That R&D is not cheap, nor is it easy, no is it fast. An example is the (soon to be released) APS TT kit. They have been testing their kit for months - refining, honing, getting all the kinks worked out....
And that's just testing. Who knows how long they spent on the initial R&D, the deep research and design that got them this far where they are almost ready to offer it to the public.
A Paxton or Vortech head unit is circa $2000 retail. Some people look at that and think "why should I pay $5k+ or $6k+ for something that costs $2k?" But what about the "ancillary" parts? The J-Tube, BOV, FMIC, tensioners, routing, alignment, relocation, oiling etc.. etc. etc. etc. etc.
And what about the after sales service? The guarantee (for want of a better word) and the reliability?
Building a kit is much more than buying two Garrett turbos and some piping, throwing it together and seeing how it works.
I, personally, do not have the skill, talent, will, know how, knowledge - call it whatever you like - but I know my limitations, and I do not have the ability to build a forced induction kit from scratch. I tried it in the 80s and the results were very mixed. I have since learned my limitations.
So, like I said - "Good luck". I meant it with absolutely no heat.
EG
I would not suggest trying to fabricate this kit. If it were on an F-body, I would say by all means go for it. I have many years of fabrication skill.
I would not attempt this kit only because of the tight space constraints. The 2 hockey puck tubes running inside the rocker panels are a very tight tolerance. You need to install this kit yourself to really appreciate how they got everything to line-up so well. The is about 160 pounds of hardware...nut bolts, special gaskets for the oil line adapter for the oil pressure sending unit. All the high temp coating would cost an arm and a leg. The wiring harness would be the cheapest thing to make. The laser cut flanges are perfectly flat with no warpage after welding. The intercooler is not cheap. There is about 60 pages of instructions alone. I would be amazed if you could replicate this system in 3 months in your spare time. Oh yeah, the injectors are not cheap, nor the turbos themselves or the BOV or wastegates. start pricing things online. It is a high quality system and fits well. Price the hoses alone and the clamps. Those clamps are much heavier than radiator hose clamps.
I think you could make the kit, but I doubt for less money.
Your best bet would be to buy a used kit. I may think of removing my kit in the future to go bigger cubes for smoother power so I can track my car.
good luck
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 976
Likes: 1
From: Lincoln NE
Originally Posted by DOUG @ ECS
I'm sorry, but this is the "import want to be" post I have ever seen on this forum. Of course after Rick spent hours upon hours to design the kit it is easier to copy it afterwards. Sell your Vette, buy a Honda, and copy one of those electric S/C kits for it. Then you can save even more money.
and this must be the most immature response i've ever seen on this forum especially from a vender....
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 976
Likes: 1
From: Lincoln NE
Originally Posted by N0TDADYS_98
after thinking about it long and hard i came to the conclusion there doesn't seem to be anything special about the STS kit if you understand the ideas it's based off of. So i was wondering has anyone built there own "STS" turbo kit? or is there a competitor that builds equal and or better kits for less... $6900 is alot of money and considering what your working with i think it can be done for alot less.
I posted this not because i was planning on trying to build one from scratch because i'm billy bad *** and know more about cars than any of you.. but because i know alot of people try alot of things and i wanted to see if it's been done... I guess the answer is no... I apprecate all the responses...
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Drifting
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 0
From: Northern VA
Originally Posted by N0TDADYS_98
I posted this not because i was planning on trying to build one from scratch because i'm billy bad *** and know more about cars than any of you.. but because i know alot of people try alot of things and i wanted to see if it's been done... I guess the answer is no... I apprecate all the responses...
Shouldn't be too hard to figure the cost of turbos, waste gates, blowoff valves, clamps, hoses, intercooler, oil pump and lines. The rest is fabrication. If you know a decent fabricator this would not be difficult.
I would like to see how the rear mount that Cartek did looks...I dont see why a single wouldn't work if you can figure out the plumbing.
Don't let these people tell you it can't be done for less, it can, and possibly better as well.
If I knew people with fab skills, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,851
Likes: 1
From: San Bruno Ca
Originally Posted by FRCTony
Just do it. Then people will learn something.
Shouldn't be too hard to figure the cost of turbos, waste gates, blowoff valves, clamps, hoses, intercooler, oil pump and lines. The rest is fabrication. If you know a decent fabricator this would not be difficult.
I would like to see how the rear mount that Cartek did looks...I dont see why a single wouldn't work if you can figure out the plumbing.
Don't let these people tell you it can't be done for less, it can, and possibly better as well.
If I knew people with fab skills, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Shouldn't be too hard to figure the cost of turbos, waste gates, blowoff valves, clamps, hoses, intercooler, oil pump and lines. The rest is fabrication. If you know a decent fabricator this would not be difficult.
I would like to see how the rear mount that Cartek did looks...I dont see why a single wouldn't work if you can figure out the plumbing.
Don't let these people tell you it can't be done for less, it can, and possibly better as well.
If I knew people with fab skills, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 988
Likes: 4
From: Livermore CA
The price of the STS kit includes the intangibles which many home garage fabricators don't consider. 1. A support network consisting of knowledgeable people to help you with the nuances of a major change to your intake and exhaust system. 2. The hours and hours of trial and error to develop a pretty close to turn key system for a bolt on upgrade. 3. For the California folks, wading through the paperwork and certification process to make the system a legal mod. 4. The piles of tubing, engine, turbo and misc. hardware that were consumed or junked. The support and developement hours along the the lost hardware costs have to be spread out into the cost of the number of systems they expect to sell along with a fair profit. I don't own an STS system nor am I in any way affiliated with them, I have spoken to them on the phone several times for a fair amount of time with questions about their product and they never hesitated to spend the time necessary to answer my questions. I personally feel folks like STS who take the risks to develop something cool for cars should be rewarded with a profit.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,237
Likes: 9
From: Springhill FL
As someone that built my own Supercharger kit, I can tell you that EG made some very good points.
I scrounged up all the parts(lots of ebay) and did all the cutting, fabbing and wrenching myself. I'm still chasing out a bug or two but my car is on the street.
How did it come out ?
Well in the end I spent a bit over 3k on my Custom P1sc kit. Keep in mind that if you keep your eye out you can grab a used kit for 3500-4000. I saved a little money, but I can tell you that I spent ALOT of time working things out. It took alot of sweat, some blood and a fair amount of cursing.
My savings werent that much, so if I had needed to pay anyone to do any of the work it would have cost the same as a kit(or more!).
Also, if I had spent the time I put into this project at work putting in extra hours......the hourly wage alone would nearly pay for an entire kit....Food for thought
My personal advice is:
If you already have ALL the tools needed, and are comfortable with them.
If you truely understand the size of this project, and have the spare time.
If you understand and accept what could go wrong and what you stand to lose.
Then go for it
I dont regret my choice as it was a fun project...but I went into it for the sake of a project.
I scrounged up all the parts(lots of ebay) and did all the cutting, fabbing and wrenching myself. I'm still chasing out a bug or two but my car is on the street.
How did it come out ?
Well in the end I spent a bit over 3k on my Custom P1sc kit. Keep in mind that if you keep your eye out you can grab a used kit for 3500-4000. I saved a little money, but I can tell you that I spent ALOT of time working things out. It took alot of sweat, some blood and a fair amount of cursing.
My savings werent that much, so if I had needed to pay anyone to do any of the work it would have cost the same as a kit(or more!).
Also, if I had spent the time I put into this project at work putting in extra hours......the hourly wage alone would nearly pay for an entire kit....Food for thought
My personal advice is:
If you already have ALL the tools needed, and are comfortable with them.
If you truely understand the size of this project, and have the spare time.
If you understand and accept what could go wrong and what you stand to lose.
Then go for it
I dont regret my choice as it was a fun project...but I went into it for the sake of a project.
