TTI and APS - tough choice
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,020
Likes: 0
From: Oregon City , Oregon USA
TTI and APS - tough choice
I'm set to pull the trigger on the APS system but for some reason the link won't work for me. 
In the mean time I'm looking at the positives and negatives of each system like others have. It makes it a real tough call.
TTI:
Pro- Coated hot parts
easy to change air filters
hard piping to turbo/intake
no scavenge pump for oil return
proven reliability
big single intercooler
con- possible tire rubbing issues
intercooler interferes with air flow to radiator
dated air bridge setup
APS:
Pro- dual intercoolers allow full air flow to radiator
nice looking air bridge assembly
no tire clearance problems- I think
stainless hard piping
con- funky flexible hose to intake
scavenge oil pump adds complexity/possible failure point
harder to access air filters for servicing
There are lots of things to consider here.
And before you say it, I know that this subject has been beat to death so don't bother telling me. I'm just thinking out loud here and maybe getting some fresh perspectives if anyone has any to add. But please keep it civil. Reading some of the past threads is like sitting at the dinner table listening to your in-laws arguing.
In the mean time I'm looking at the positives and negatives of each system like others have. It makes it a real tough call.TTI:
Pro- Coated hot parts
easy to change air filters
hard piping to turbo/intake
no scavenge pump for oil return
proven reliability
big single intercooler
con- possible tire rubbing issues
intercooler interferes with air flow to radiator
dated air bridge setup
APS:
Pro- dual intercoolers allow full air flow to radiator
nice looking air bridge assembly
no tire clearance problems- I think
stainless hard piping
con- funky flexible hose to intake
scavenge oil pump adds complexity/possible failure point
harder to access air filters for servicing
There are lots of things to consider here.
And before you say it, I know that this subject has been beat to death so don't bother telling me. I'm just thinking out loud here and maybe getting some fresh perspectives if anyone has any to add. But please keep it civil. Reading some of the past threads is like sitting at the dinner table listening to your in-laws arguing.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 20,474
Likes: 2
From: Detroit
From my experience that's only the case when installed improperly. My car was used as the test mule for some IC placement R&D and the installation instructions have sense been updated.
I haven't had any cooling issues with my setup even in the summer heat which means quite a bit considering my driving style.
The K&N thingie that the TTi ships with works, although I agree it's ugly. I opted to use a pipe (similar to what the ECS supercharger kits ship with) which is an inexpensive solution. Others have gone with the BBK bridge which also offers an elegant solution, albeit at a higher price.
I've attached an underhood picture to highlight the pipe instead of K&N bridge.
I'd also add that the TTi kit comes with larger turbos.
I haven't had any cooling issues with my setup even in the summer heat which means quite a bit considering my driving style.
The K&N thingie that the TTi ships with works, although I agree it's ugly. I opted to use a pipe (similar to what the ECS supercharger kits ship with) which is an inexpensive solution. Others have gone with the BBK bridge which also offers an elegant solution, albeit at a higher price.
I've attached an underhood picture to highlight the pipe instead of K&N bridge.
I'd also add that the TTi kit comes with larger turbos.
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,003
Likes: 12
From: Toronto Ontario
I'm set to pull the trigger on the APS system but for some reason the link won't work for me. In the mean time I'm looking at the positives and negatives of each system like others have. It makes it a real tough call.
TTI:
Pro- Coated hot parts
easy to change air filters
hard piping to turbo/intake
no scavenge pump for oil return
proven reliability
big single intercooler
con- possible tire rubbing issues
intercooler interferes with air flow to radiator
dated air bridge setup
APS:
Pro- dual intercoolers allow full air flow to radiator
nice looking air bridge assembly
no tire clearance problems- I think
stainless hard piping
con- funky flexible hose to intake
scavenge oil pump adds complexity/possible failure point
harder to access air filters for servicing
There are lots of things to consider here.
And before you say it, I know that this subject has been beat to death so don't bother telling me. I'm just thinking out loud here and maybe getting some fresh perspectives if anyone has any to add. But please keep it civil. Reading some of the past threads is like sitting at the dinner table listening to your in-laws arguing.
In the mean time I'm looking at the positives and negatives of each system like others have. It makes it a real tough call.TTI:
Pro- Coated hot parts
easy to change air filters
hard piping to turbo/intake
no scavenge pump for oil return
proven reliability
big single intercooler
con- possible tire rubbing issues
intercooler interferes with air flow to radiator
dated air bridge setup
APS:
Pro- dual intercoolers allow full air flow to radiator
nice looking air bridge assembly
no tire clearance problems- I think
stainless hard piping
con- funky flexible hose to intake
scavenge oil pump adds complexity/possible failure point
harder to access air filters for servicing
There are lots of things to consider here.
And before you say it, I know that this subject has been beat to death so don't bother telling me. I'm just thinking out loud here and maybe getting some fresh perspectives if anyone has any to add. But please keep it civil. Reading some of the past threads is like sitting at the dinner table listening to your in-laws arguing.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,426
Likes: 0
From: Toronto Ontario
Lets be honest ... they are both good kits. One looks nice, the other is proven. When they start to offer a kit for 8K with GT turbos and tubular headers, then you have somthing to talk about
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,020
Likes: 0
From: Oregon City , Oregon USA
AVB: no I'll probably have the kit installed. The nice thing is that TTI is just a few hours from me. How could you do better than having the manufacturer install their own kit?
Boost master: nice to hear about no rubbing isues. The factory modified the steering on the ZO6 so the wider tires wouldn't rub. It seems to work but the thing has a turning radius as bad as my F250.
LB: is there really an advantage to tubular headers? some say the heavier castings keep the heat in the pipes where the energy helps spool the turbos. Also less possibility of cracking or warping. I do like the looks of the top mount systems though. Love the bling. If the PTK setup got involved in this discounting trend I think I'd go
Nice to hear no cooling issues. As I don't want to modify this car to the point that reliability is compromised too much I think the smaller turbos would be ok but it is nice to have the option to lean on it later. Although the 800 to 850 hp APS says their turbos will support is nothing to sneeze at. All you'd need on the street.
Boost master: nice to hear about no rubbing isues. The factory modified the steering on the ZO6 so the wider tires wouldn't rub. It seems to work but the thing has a turning radius as bad as my F250.
LB: is there really an advantage to tubular headers? some say the heavier castings keep the heat in the pipes where the energy helps spool the turbos. Also less possibility of cracking or warping. I do like the looks of the top mount systems though. Love the bling. If the PTK setup got involved in this discounting trend I think I'd go
Nice to hear no cooling issues. As I don't want to modify this car to the point that reliability is compromised too much I think the smaller turbos would be ok but it is nice to have the option to lean on it later. Although the 800 to 850 hp APS says their turbos will support is nothing to sneeze at. All you'd need on the street.
Last edited by hermit; Dec 16, 2006 at 02:45 AM.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,706
Likes: 2
From: Valrico Florida
Racer
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
From: los angeles calif.
From my experience that's only the case when installed improperly. My car was used as the test mule for some IC placement R&D and the installation instructions have sense been updated.
I haven't had any cooling issues with my setup even in the summer heat which means quite a bit considering my driving style.
The K&N thingie that the TTi ships with works, although I agree it's ugly. I opted to use a pipe (similar to what the ECS supercharger kits ship with) which is an inexpensive solution. Others have gone with the BBK bridge which also offers an elegant solution, albeit at a higher price.
I've attached an underhood picture to highlight the pipe instead of K&N bridge.
I'd also add that the TTi kit comes with larger turbos.
I haven't had any cooling issues with my setup even in the summer heat which means quite a bit considering my driving style.
The K&N thingie that the TTi ships with works, although I agree it's ugly. I opted to use a pipe (similar to what the ECS supercharger kits ship with) which is an inexpensive solution. Others have gone with the BBK bridge which also offers an elegant solution, albeit at a higher price.
I've attached an underhood picture to highlight the pipe instead of K&N bridge.
I'd also add that the TTi kit comes with larger turbos.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,521
Likes: 146
From: Watertown CT
I have to say I was one of the first ones to jump on the APS deal going on, as fast as I could dish out the deposit I did, almost wish TTi offered their deal first, and mainly for the reason stated above, it's proven. But I've followed the work over time that APS has been doing, and it really appears they have done their homework. Does TTI supply their lite kit with any other extra parts than APS? The APS is twin blow off and twin waste gate, is the TTI? Does TTI supply injectors? APS doesn't. For those of you with TTI can you run coilover suspension or is the piping in the way? I've asked APS this and they didn't have an answer. Personally I believe these systems are going to both be great options without much difference between either performance wise. I guess there always has to be the person who's willing to spend the money and try something new!!
Hopefully it doesn't bite me in the a$$!! Good luck to all with the TTi kits, $8000 shipped for the full ball bearing, that's such a great deal!! We've seen used kits selling for $7000!! How can you beat a brand new one for that. Me I'm going to stay with the APS, I will post up graphs as soon as I get them, hopefully end of Feb!! Good luck to all!! Dan
Hopefully it doesn't bite me in the a$$!! Good luck to all with the TTi kits, $8000 shipped for the full ball bearing, that's such a great deal!! We've seen used kits selling for $7000!! How can you beat a brand new one for that. Me I'm going to stay with the APS, I will post up graphs as soon as I get them, hopefully end of Feb!! Good luck to all!! Dan
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,706
Likes: 2
From: Valrico Florida
I went with what was already out and running with no issues. The APS kit is a well thought out design and should work out fine. It just needs to hit a few cars and time will tell.. Both kits have their limits when it comes to max effort, but both kits will far exceed the street power you can put down with the current selection of street tires. You will never be the fastest, but you can be one of them.. If you want MAX effort and the problems that come along with MAX effort then your options are PTK and HP.. Just welcome even more drivetrain carnage. If you want just a dyno # and plan to turn down the wick. The go with the ladder, but expect some lag. If you want no lag and the best driveability I suggest you try TTI X's proven kit or be one of the first to get the APS kit..
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,931
Likes: 2
From: Tx
Has anyone wondered if the APS intercoolers can really function under extended use? It just seems like hardly any airflow can get in there. I guess the LPE cars have been working that way, but I still question it. The issues would not show up on a single pass/pull since the intercoolers can pull out a lot of heat with no airflow for a short period.
My biggest overall concern with both systems would be heat and long term durability of all the stuff around the hot parts. Let’s face it, the c5 is far from ideal for an aftermarket turbo (everything has to be real tight no matter how you do it -- well there is the rear mount LOL). In an ideal world you would want to get under both installs and look at clearances...You just can't tell from pictures.
I know there are guys claiming no heat issues with TTIx, but I would like to see the results of one of these kits on a car that is really road raced... like JBs car, or driven all day in 110* heat.
The other thing about the APS kit that spooks me a bit is the electric oil pump. If it fails you are toast and when working properly you have it dumping more oil in the valve covers (you could obvoiusly tap the oil pan, but the pump would still be an issue)
As of today, I would lean toward TTI. I guess we will know more in a few months.
My biggest overall concern with both systems would be heat and long term durability of all the stuff around the hot parts. Let’s face it, the c5 is far from ideal for an aftermarket turbo (everything has to be real tight no matter how you do it -- well there is the rear mount LOL). In an ideal world you would want to get under both installs and look at clearances...You just can't tell from pictures.
I know there are guys claiming no heat issues with TTIx, but I would like to see the results of one of these kits on a car that is really road raced... like JBs car, or driven all day in 110* heat.
The other thing about the APS kit that spooks me a bit is the electric oil pump. If it fails you are toast and when working properly you have it dumping more oil in the valve covers (you could obvoiusly tap the oil pan, but the pump would still be an issue)
As of today, I would lean toward TTI. I guess we will know more in a few months.
Last edited by QuickSilver2002; Dec 16, 2006 at 10:59 AM.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
From: Columbus Ohio
Don't rule out the PTS kit either. I notice that it rarely gets attention on this site, and I don't really understand why. Several guys are running it with great results. The heat issues are not really a concern if you take the proper precautions. I myself decided to go with the PTK. I have no doubt that I will be more than satisfied with the results. Granted, I'm not ******* on the APS or TTi kits in any way. They both appear to be very well designed. I'm just throwing out other options for you.
Also, PTS is offering 15% off right now as well. You might give Dalton a call for more details. Very nice guy to deal with.
-Austin
Also, PTS is offering 15% off right now as well. You might give Dalton a call for more details. Very nice guy to deal with.
-Austin
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,020
Likes: 0
From: Oregon City , Oregon USA
So what is the price of the PTS kit at 15% off. I like the looks of the Hall designed heat extractor hood. Let's get all of the options out here. I wish someone from TTI would be active on this forum to answer some of the questions directly but I understand there are only so many hours in a day. I will say they have been very prompt in answering my emails.
Brian
Brian
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 10
From: Macomb MI
. What I will not do is participate in picking apart competitive products etc.Phil
Last edited by RoadRebel; Dec 16, 2006 at 01:39 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,948
Likes: 0
From: Aurora IL
St. Jude Donor '06
So what is the price of the PTS kit at 15% off. I like the looks of the Hall designed heat extractor hood. Let's get all of the options out here. I wish someone from TTI would be active on this forum to answer some of the questions directly but I understand there are only so many hours in a day. I will say they have been very prompt in answering my emails.
Brian
Brian
This guy that just posted AKA "DR. Phil" as he is known......IS your best info guy. He has helped MANY folks on this forum and if you do a search is very well respected................
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 96,496
Likes: 82
St. Jude Donor '03 through '17
I have no cooling or tire rubing issues with my TTiX and it's been trouble free for 20 months. IMHO tired and true always come out on top in the long run.
Good luck on your decision.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 20,474
Likes: 2
From: Detroit
Yes, provided you pay for them.
Including fuel components in the base kit is a bad idea as everyone has different goals in mind (plus everyone has a different starting point..).Let's not drag this thread
with a PTS(K) / STS discussion as the purpose of this thread is to compare the TTi Stage X kit with the APS kit.We can discuss PTS's kit and their speedy turn-around time in another thread.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,020
Likes: 0
From: Oregon City , Oregon USA
Thanks for the help. Some questions that come to mind are:
Does the X kit come with dual BOV's?
Does it retain the stock cats? I assume you would lose the pup cats.
Does it have provisions for all of the smog/engine management sensors?
I talked to the people at the DEQ Smog test station and was told that a system does not have to have CARB approval. Usually not even a visual is done. Since they just plug into the OBD11 it just has to have a "ready status" reading and all is well.
Does the X kit come with dual BOV's?
Does it retain the stock cats? I assume you would lose the pup cats.
Does it have provisions for all of the smog/engine management sensors?
I talked to the people at the DEQ Smog test station and was told that a system does not have to have CARB approval. Usually not even a visual is done. Since they just plug into the OBD11 it just has to have a "ready status" reading and all is well.
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,003
Likes: 12
From: Toronto Ontario
Thanks for the help. Some questions that come to mind are:
Does the X kit come with dual BOV's?
Does it retain the stock cats? I assume you would lose the pup cats.
Does it have provisions for all of the smog/engine management sensors?
I talked to the people at the DEQ Smog test station and was told that a system does not have to have CARB approval. Usually not even a visual is done. Since they just plug into the OBD11 it just has to have a "ready status" reading and all is well.
Does the X kit come with dual BOV's?
Does it retain the stock cats? I assume you would lose the pup cats.
Does it have provisions for all of the smog/engine management sensors?
I talked to the people at the DEQ Smog test station and was told that a system does not have to have CARB approval. Usually not even a visual is done. Since they just plug into the OBD11 it just has to have a "ready status" reading and all is well.
Yes.
Yes.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 10
From: Macomb MI
Thanks for the help. Some questions that come to mind are:
Does the X kit come with dual BOV's?
Does it retain the stock cats? I assume you would lose the pup cats.
Does it have provisions for all of the smog/engine management sensors?
I talked to the people at the DEQ Smog test station and was told that a system does not have to have CARB approval. Usually not even a visual is done. Since they just plug into the OBD11 it just has to have a "ready status" reading and all is well.
Does the X kit come with dual BOV's?
Does it retain the stock cats? I assume you would lose the pup cats.
Does it have provisions for all of the smog/engine management sensors?
I talked to the people at the DEQ Smog test station and was told that a system does not have to have CARB approval. Usually not even a visual is done. Since they just plug into the OBD11 it just has to have a "ready status" reading and all is well.
The kit is designed to attach to the factory converters but if your model year did have a pup it would have go. Aftermarket high flows are an option to think about. IF you have the same testing as Washington etc you wont have an issue at all and the info you have gotten from the DEQ is actually pretty correct.
The Dual valves have been replaced with a big single 50mm Tial valve. We have had some issues in the past with the dual bovs and opted to upgrade to the Tial mounted topside. I believe if you want you can request the old style duals but you must specify this when you order.
Phil