I am sure you've seen the vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1cPu...eature=related

There are a few more but the adolecent idiot kids filming the vid has some serious language issues, so I figured I'd just post this one.

I would like to add a Harris Speed Works kit with 100-150 shot on my car, but I do not want to be in the same boat as these guys.

Question is, what causes the Nitrous Explosion (Fuel Puddle?) and how can it be prevented other than going to a Direct Port System?

 

Well I am sure guys are going to jump me for this but here goes, the facts are facts and we can't change that. It's the wet kits that cause the issues, and we seem to have an above average problem with the Vettes and the EFI/LSx platform. Here's how I can back this up, try to find a DRY user that has had a backfire and the ensuing engine bay fire? I can tell everyone right now you will not find one because it just doesn't happen when you keep the fuel out of an intake designed for AIR only. There is one Dry backfire on record, however, that was a high RPM lean backfire caused by no Window switch, and that was "I", whom it happened to. But, even then, it was not so violent as to cause the fuel rails to come dislodged, and the is really the root of the burn down issue, fuel spraying all over the place. The front entrance plastic intakes can not take a backfire, the explosion takes the path of least resistance and that would be right through the side of the intake. For the doubters I have a collection of these backfires and burn downs on video. Now with all that said, we can minimize the problem by having a window switch and by using good nozzles that atomize the fuel, which leads to the next fact. Atomized fuel as it travels through our intakes will collect into droplets and fall out of the air stream. Why? Well another intake problem that is not conducive to the spray, our intakes front entrance and having the plenum under the runners cause the fuel to travel up and over to get to the cylinders. All of the turns and distance traveled slow the mix down and allows fuel drop out or commonly referred to as puddling. Some vendors whom hate the dry kits will try to tell you that drop out doesn't exist, well they are full of BS and just trying to make $$ with wet kits rather than tell the whole story. Moral of the story, if you want to all but 100% eliminate the backfire/burn down issue on the EFI/LSx platform just run a dry kit. With the recent advent of the HSW Interface for fueling and timing pull, along with the HSW Dry plate kit and/or DP Dry and/or the coming NX Dry MAF kit (mechanically controls the dry a/f ratio), there really is no need or reason to run the wet hits on our cars any longer. Do you guys realize that the current wet nozzle kits were the companies quick answer to spraying the LSx cars, they just took a single or duel DP wet nozzle and stuck it in the bellows. Not of the best engineering, and now there is the better wet plate kits, but still not in the safety league of the Dry Kits. Let the games begin, lol.
Robert

 

Thanks a lot for the reply and it kinda answered what I already knew, but I wanted a second opinion (it could've been $hitty solenoids and a crappy 2nd hand system).

I swear I was reading a few months back that all of the guys were swearing by the wet kits, and that's why I posted the question.

 

For the most part guys still defend the wet kits because they don't really understand nor could set-up a reliable dry kit, and of course because they own one (I do have more experiance with wet). Well all has changed within this year. Now the dry hit can be set-up very easily, actually easier than a wet hit, IMO, and by anyone. The problem of old was a a/f ratio that could be hard to dial in, well not any more. It's more stable day to day than a wet hit. Why is that, well the electronics in the ECM will adjust up to about 20% the fuel for changing weather day to day; where as a fixed mechanical jet can do any changing, your stuck with what your stuck with. So the dry will get commanded a/f exactly every day, where the wet can vary because part of the supplied fuel is fixed in the mechanical jet. Hope that makes a little sense as I confuse myself sometimes, lol. Pulling timing can be much easier and cheaper with the dry also. I think we will be seeing more and more guys going dry now that the N2O companies have done their home work.

 

I am in the process of looking for a kit now. This makes me want to go dry but I am worried about pulling the timing and a/f. Does the hsw module do everything you need it to?

What complete dry kit can you reccomend for under $500 that has everything you need.

Thanks!

 

im not even going to touch this one. long story short, given all the safety percautions wet can be extremely reliable, just as safe, and easier to tune then dry. call a few of the big name shops and see what they recomend.

 

Yes

Nothing personal as usual, however, this is the thinking that holds back the new technology of the dry hit. Many, and I mean many shops and/or tuners still do not understand the dry hit. On top of that, they also are unaware of the many innovative Dry products that have hit the market recently. Why on earth would anyone want to stick with technology that was developed for carburetor cars back in the 70"s when the 2008 EFI technology is usable and readily available. Yes i was running N2O in the 70's and ran these carb kits which have been adapted to modern EFI platforms. People come in with quick jabs, but nothing really there to back it up. Hell if we stick with this type of thinking we might as well pull the EFI off and stick the carbs back on our cars. We use the injectors and computer everyday for fueling, why would we not also use them to supply fuel for the nitrous hits. Given all the safety precautions yes, the wet hit can be reliable, though never as safe as a dry hit, and currently harder to tune, once not long ago it was a factor that dry was harder to tune, but now using the ECM to fuel the hit it's just like your day to day fueling very dependable. Thinking what can happen when a fuel noid fails, and this is more common than the backfire/burn down, is the reason I took the wet hit off my car as my 3rd stage, just didn't want a lean melt down. I have probably done a hundred of these type threads on many forums and still no one, not even the supposed big time tuners can counter the FACTS that I lay out, if it was so, I would have been shut up many moons ago? If that was the case, those that hate my guts would surely be using that info to their advantage, but it's just not out there. My stuff is open for debates to the entire world, someone must be able to prove me wrong, if I was wrong, wouldn't we think so? Some think that because I tout the merits of the dry hit, that somehow I am personally putting them down because they run wet hits, and that I don't get. OK, babbling off, lol. OH yea, a flag waiver too.
Robert

EDIT: Please ask your big time shops and tuners whom is running a cutting edge Direct Port Dry hit as their street/strip set-up? This set-up would be totally using the stock PCM/ECM for all needs and any size hit you want, try that a year ago. Trust me it will catch on. The inherent safety of the dry, the simplicity of plumbing a dry, the best distribution (better EGTs out of the box than a tune per cylinder wet DP kit), 80lb injectors for any size dry hit using the factory PCM/ECM, timing pull and fueling in the same tune as N/A and won't effect max effort N/A tune, truly two tunes in one (no wet can compete) and there is much much more. Now if we consider slapping on a wet hit jetted for 150 and never checking a thing, then maybe a wet can be easier, but we all know that is not the way to go. If we do decide to go Wet after an informed choice, then I would rec a wet plate kit, and even more so a Wet DP kit. I do offer wet kits as many platforms can't run dry hits period, but the GM crowd is lucky in that regard, IMO.
Robert

 

robert, i have gone round and round with you on this and have always backed up my point on this forum and tech. at this point i just don't feel like it. it just gets realy old, you bashing wet kits every chance you get. not to mention you pimp products that you have little expierience with.

 

ALG,

Can you give me your reasons for going wet? I do not want to start anything I would like to hear both sides to try to make a decision.

Thanks!

 

See that's just it, you think it's personal, when in fact many have not even heard the merits of the dry hit. Every product I currently support I have in fact tested throughly and have run the dry hit in every form and fashion imaginable. I have coming a proto type 85mm Dry MAF kit that will be the predecessor to the NX 85mm dry kit. Now why do you suppose that is? When the Interface came out, who was the only one on the Internet who showed screen shots from HP Tuner of actual in car logging of said product. Who was the first to introduce the Dry Direct Port street kit using the stock PCM, where all previous dry DP hits required aftermarket PCMs. Who was doing nozzle tuning and showing how to to do it which led to the NX Dry kit? who had the first write up of the Timing pull, self contained using the stock PCM, which didn't effect the n/a tune? who held numerous stock long block ET records running the dry hit, even beating out the turbos and blowers? Now why would I say these things, well you trying to discredit my input with cheap shots is the only reason i feel the need. The only advice I would give you is to open your mind to something new. Bashing wet kits hardly, 97% of the cars on the road require wet kits, and they are certainly going to be offered in my product line. Besides that, I have over 30 years experience using and running the wet hits, and probably 5 or 6 using the dry hits. It just is the dry is the better choice for our cars, IMO, and I try to back that up with facts. Let the end user decide, and no need to get nasty about it, geese. Again not personal from my end, and I know it gets old for some, but you can use the ingnore button so as not to see my posts, but some guys still haven't heard all there is to hear. The dry is changing so fast with innovative new products...
Robert

 

Simplicity and ease of operation are my reasons. Well that and I have no MAF on my car Ilike wet kits because one or two jet changes and your ready to go. Some original dry kits you would need to tweak the timing and PE correction tables to correct fueling on modified cars. Some of the new dry inovations like Robert is refering to are quite nice and in the limited experience I have with them work Very well.

Most of the nitrous backfires are from cars that aren't setup correctly. They may only use the old school hand activation button or mabe a wide-open-throttle switch with no window switch. If you set the kit up correctly there should be no worries., IMO.

 

joey pretty much summed it up. you can also run a stand alone fuel system and run race fuel. this will give you an even larger safety margin from detonation. you can do the same with a dry kit, but you would pretty much have to run your tank down to fumes and then put at least 5 gallons of race fuel in it ($$$$). i have used one of new devices that robert continually mentions, and in my personal opinion it is garbage. i went back to my wet kit and haven't looked back. if you need any more help or have any other questions feel free to ask.

 

i am not taking cheap shots, just stating the facts and will continue to do so:

-i could have had one of these "prototype" dry maf kits before you, but chose not to.
-as far as the screen shots for the interface, it was the manufacture posting them.
-dry directport using the interface, that one is yours. probably cause of the fact no one is willing to gamble on a motor.
-nozzle tuning, yours. but not very effective imo, since nozzles can move or rotate by themselves.
-pulling timing with a dry kit, many people were doing it way before you.
-stock long block record, hardly impressive with a 200+ hit. heads & cam cars are running way quiker than your setup with less power.

 

guys, here is a great wet vs. dry. this thread is not bias in anyway and will direct you in the right direction on what is right for you.
http://www.nitroustech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92

 

I've been reading the Wet vs. Dry threads for well over a year now. There are valid points to be made on both sides. Initially I didn't know a whole lot about dry systems, and due to Robert's posts I was able to learn everything I needed to know. In fact, I had changed my goals to a dry system for quite a long time. Recently I've decided to run a wet kit due to several reasons unique to my setup/financial situation. I don't have any worries about a backfire because I feel proper precautions have been taken. Some of these precautions are due to Robert56s suggestions. I do feel he occasionally says things that're bias towards dry kits, but bias isn't a problem so long as he keeps everyone and their motors safe. Dry technology is coming along well. Maybe for my next ride...

More on topic: I'd always assumed the majority of wet backfires occured because of improper tuning or shooting the N20 at too low of an rpm in conjunction with the low plenum of the LSX. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

The main reason for backfires like that is hitting the nitrous at too low of a rpm, and also having the car bog. If you want to hit the gas off the line, then wait for more rpm and the tires to hook.

 

 

Cars burn to the ground around here,...when stupid people forget to double check there work,..and tighten lines. It's happened before, it'll happen again. Fuel, on a hot motor,...yeah, problem.

As for backfires,...I have had one with a wet kit before. No fire to speak of, other then the flame that emmited from every crease of my hood. The hood also bowed out, alot,....then went back in place. If you blinked, you missed it. The hood now has small spider cracks, that only I seem to see right above where the airbridge would be,....and the hood also has a slight tweak to it.

Besides that, my wilson manifold top and lower half blew apart.

Reason for all of this?...I dunno honestly. It happened soo fast but, honestly, I think it was 100% MY FAULT. I was about to have a roll race(closed course ofcourse) with a skyline 240,..who agreed on a 2nd gear slow roll, 50mph. I was going to come out on motor in second but,..decided before we leaped to arm the bottle,...he increased speed,...to about 60ish mph,...honk honk honk.....WOT,....tire spin like I hit water....rev limiter......BOOM!

It was pretty much like that, and just as fast.

The car had a large vaccum leak, obviously,... I retuned the car on the side of the road with my diablosport predator,...car idled @ 3500rpm,...and I crusied her right on home, just like that.

I had another FAST on it the very next morning. Lesson learned. I now have nitrous burst panels,...even though I am currently turbo'd.

 

Ouch!

Shahram

 

This is the reason for the thread, to find out what would be a safe hit to run on a non-direct port car, and what counter measures can be taken to prevent this. I will not be installing or tuning the car afterwards, I have a respectable Tuner and wanted to know the safest system (and brand) to add 100-150 shot to a car.

I'm still thinking Dry Shot. Let the computer add more fuel as it needs it in correlation to the amount of Nitrous going in.

I highly appreciate all of the knowledge that you guys are providing and please, keep the ideas flowing.

What are Burst Panels?