Racetronic pump went out- Time for a new fuel system
07-25-2008, 10:11 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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Racetronic pump went out- Time for a new fuel system
My racetronic pump finally bit the dust. I'm a little dissapointed because I don't think I have 800 miles on it yet. It has acted strange from the start. Sometimes it would just not work then when I would try it again it would be fine. A couple of weeks ago it went out again and after trying all of the troubleshooting tricks I could think of I resorted to the low tech solution: I smacked the the gas tank and it took right off. The last time I went to drive the car it was fluctuating at first then came up to pressure so I thought all was good. About a half mile down the road it quit all together. When I went to drain the gas out of the tank I hooked it up directly to the battery with the jumper that came with the pump kit and it ran, but very slowly. It actually did pretty well when it was working and supported some pretty good horsepower #s with the help of the meth kit, but when I went forged and upped the boost level it was on the ragged edge so I think it's time to upgrade .
So now I've got to decide which system to go with. They all seem to have their good & bad points.
Some are easier to install.
Some screw right into the gas tank - kind of scary.
Some require a huge hole in the tank - kind of scary
Some come with fuel rails - some don't.
Some convert the system to a return style. Necessary or not?????
Some are all contained in the tank - others aren't
Some look like really good systems but when you add up the cost individual components I can't justify the cost of the package.
I've read a lot of threads in the archives and there seem to be valid arguments for many different systems. But, I've got to make a decision soon or my car will be spending the rest of the summer on jack stands.
So many choices.
So now I've got to decide which system to go with. They all seem to have their good & bad points.
Some are easier to install.
Some screw right into the gas tank - kind of scary.
Some require a huge hole in the tank - kind of scary
Some come with fuel rails - some don't.
Some convert the system to a return style. Necessary or not?????
Some are all contained in the tank - others aren't
Some look like really good systems but when you add up the cost individual components I can't justify the cost of the package.
I've read a lot of threads in the archives and there seem to be valid arguments for many different systems. But, I've got to make a decision soon or my car will be spending the rest of the summer on jack stands.
So many choices.
07-25-2008, 10:19 PM
#2
Drifting
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http://www.eastcoastsupercharging.co...%20System.html
You pay for what you get. Just do it right the first time. ECS has a complate fuel set up. everything you could possibly need. This is a great start and end to your problem. Thanks mike
You pay for what you get. Just do it right the first time. ECS has a complate fuel set up. everything you could possibly need. This is a great start and end to your problem. Thanks mike
07-26-2008, 12:01 AM
#3
Race Director
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Cruise-In 7-8-9-10 Veteran
St. Jude Donor '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12
http://www.eastcoastsupercharging.co...%20System.html
You pay for what you get. Just do it right the first time. ECS has a complate fuel set up. everything you could possibly need. This is a great start and end to your problem. Thanks mike
You pay for what you get. Just do it right the first time. ECS has a complate fuel set up. everything you could possibly need. This is a great start and end to your problem. Thanks mike
Can't go wrong with the ECS system.
07-26-2008, 05:32 PM
#6
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St. Jude Donor '06 & '12
I agree, the ECS fuel system is a KILLER setup. But on an average boosted car, its a MAJOR overkill. On the other hand, it should be common knowledge that if you plan on power, you should just automaticaly budget it into your build.
Its like any other setup. There is a point in time where its necessary, and a point when its not. You didnt mention your power level, so I dont know if your over that threshhold. If you are, I wouldnt waste any time, and just go ahead and pick up the ECS kit. But if your in the mid 600 range (and plan on staying there), its not worth the cost. IMHO. (This is NOT a knock to the kit. Its no different than me telling my customer they dont need a KB 2.8 over a 2.6)
One thing I want to point out. Recently, there was an employee of a fairly large wiring company that most of us vendors use on a daily basis, that informed me that some fuel pump companys are NOT using the actual Walbro fuel pump. Apparently, there is a company out of china that is supplying Walbro knock off's at extremely cheap prices. These pumps look EXACTLY like the original Walbro that LPE sells. All the way down to the "Walbro" engraving on the housing. If you put them together, you physically can not tell the difference.
It often makes me wonder, why LPE never has failures, yet the other walbros tend to be plagued with problems.
If anyone wants the link to the "Knock Off" pumps, let me know. I dont think I am allowed to post it, cause it is mentioned on a non supporting vendors site.
Jersey Jay, if you'd like, I can PM you the link so that you can let me know if its acceptable.
Its like any other setup. There is a point in time where its necessary, and a point when its not. You didnt mention your power level, so I dont know if your over that threshhold. If you are, I wouldnt waste any time, and just go ahead and pick up the ECS kit. But if your in the mid 600 range (and plan on staying there), its not worth the cost. IMHO. (This is NOT a knock to the kit. Its no different than me telling my customer they dont need a KB 2.8 over a 2.6)
One thing I want to point out. Recently, there was an employee of a fairly large wiring company that most of us vendors use on a daily basis, that informed me that some fuel pump companys are NOT using the actual Walbro fuel pump. Apparently, there is a company out of china that is supplying Walbro knock off's at extremely cheap prices. These pumps look EXACTLY like the original Walbro that LPE sells. All the way down to the "Walbro" engraving on the housing. If you put them together, you physically can not tell the difference.
It often makes me wonder, why LPE never has failures, yet the other walbros tend to be plagued with problems.
If anyone wants the link to the "Knock Off" pumps, let me know. I dont think I am allowed to post it, cause it is mentioned on a non supporting vendors site.
Jersey Jay, if you'd like, I can PM you the link so that you can let me know if its acceptable.
07-26-2008, 05:46 PM
#7
Life Time NCM #2196
I agree, the ECS fuel system is a KILLER setup. But on an average boosted car, its a MAJOR overkill. On the other hand, it should be common knowledge that if you plan on power, you should just automaticaly budget it into your build.
Its like any other setup. There is a point in time where its necessary, and a point when its not. You didnt mention your power level, so I dont know if your over that threshhold. If you are, I wouldnt waste any time, and just go ahead and pick up the ECS kit. But if your in the mid 600 range (and plan on staying there), its not worth the cost. IMHO. (This is NOT a knock to the kit. Its no different than me telling my customer they dont need a KB 2.8 over a 2.6)
One thing I want to point out. Recently, there was an employee of a fairly large wiring company that most of us vendors use on a daily basis, that informed me that some fuel pump companys are NOT using the actual Walbro fuel pump. Apparently, there is a company out of china that is supplying Walbro knock off's at extremely cheap prices. These pumps look EXACTLY like the original Walbro that LPE sells. All the way down to the "Walbro" engraving on the housing. If you put them together, you physically can not tell the difference.
It often makes me wonder, why LPE never has failures, yet the other walbros tend to be plagued with problems.
If anyone wants the link to the "Knock Off" pumps, let me know. I dont think I am allowed to post it, cause it is mentioned on a non supporting vendors site.
Jersey Jay, if you'd like, I can PM you the link so that you can let me know if its acceptable.
Its like any other setup. There is a point in time where its necessary, and a point when its not. You didnt mention your power level, so I dont know if your over that threshhold. If you are, I wouldnt waste any time, and just go ahead and pick up the ECS kit. But if your in the mid 600 range (and plan on staying there), its not worth the cost. IMHO. (This is NOT a knock to the kit. Its no different than me telling my customer they dont need a KB 2.8 over a 2.6)
One thing I want to point out. Recently, there was an employee of a fairly large wiring company that most of us vendors use on a daily basis, that informed me that some fuel pump companys are NOT using the actual Walbro fuel pump. Apparently, there is a company out of china that is supplying Walbro knock off's at extremely cheap prices. These pumps look EXACTLY like the original Walbro that LPE sells. All the way down to the "Walbro" engraving on the housing. If you put them together, you physically can not tell the difference.
It often makes me wonder, why LPE never has failures, yet the other walbros tend to be plagued with problems.
If anyone wants the link to the "Knock Off" pumps, let me know. I dont think I am allowed to post it, cause it is mentioned on a non supporting vendors site.
Jersey Jay, if you'd like, I can PM you the link so that you can let me know if its acceptable.
Not knocking the ECS setup as my buddy Mike-C5 has this on his boosted 99 and it works as advertised
07-26-2008, 05:54 PM
#8
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St. Jude Donor '06 & '12
I just looked at the OP's sig, and I think he's at almost 800rwhp..
I'd say, if you gonna swap fuel systems, to definately look into something like the ECS setup. Your pushing the stock non return setup pretty hard at that level.
I'd say, if you gonna swap fuel systems, to definately look into something like the ECS setup. Your pushing the stock non return setup pretty hard at that level.
I competely agree with Jeff here on the fuel setups and we really need to know you power level and or future mods. I have been running the LPE pump for 13k now and it supports a mere 750 rwhp and my other fueling upgrade was to convert my 99 to the older 97-98 return style setup so you may only need the real LPE pump as the Racetronixs have been problematic for years now
Not knocking the ECS setup as my buddy Mike-C5 has this on his boosted 99 and it works as advertised
Not knocking the ECS setup as my buddy Mike-C5 has this on his boosted 99 and it works as advertised
07-26-2008, 06:27 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
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I agree that it's probably time to switch to a return style system at the power level I'm at. A lot of my fueling needs at the high boost setting were being met by the meth system. It is not being used at all on low boost and turned all the way up for high boost. I think that my hp hit 791 then they backed it down a bit. If I remember correctly my duty cycle was only at around 80% with the 60# injectors. There was probably another 50 - 60 hp left on the table but since I am also at the limit with my clutch, they (TTi) didn't push it any farther.
The whole system was originally going to be run on my stock LS-6 at around the 600 rwhp level. Then my cam bolts came loose and I ended up having to rebuild the engine so I went forged and upped the power. At that point I didn't want to replace all of the parts that I had just installed since they only had a few hundred miles on them so there are some compromises.
I like the ECS system and it looks like it addresses all of the issues that would cause problems but it's pretty spendy. And with my luck it would go on sale 2 weeks after I ordered it.
One thing that I found interesting is an article in one of the magazines I saw recently that quoted a manufacturer of the braided fuel lines as saying that they only had a life expectancy of 2-3 years unless you went to the teflon lined hoses. I guess the regular lines are just a normal rubber line with a braided wrap.
The whole system was originally going to be run on my stock LS-6 at around the 600 rwhp level. Then my cam bolts came loose and I ended up having to rebuild the engine so I went forged and upped the power. At that point I didn't want to replace all of the parts that I had just installed since they only had a few hundred miles on them so there are some compromises.
I like the ECS system and it looks like it addresses all of the issues that would cause problems but it's pretty spendy. And with my luck it would go on sale 2 weeks after I ordered it.
One thing that I found interesting is an article in one of the magazines I saw recently that quoted a manufacturer of the braided fuel lines as saying that they only had a life expectancy of 2-3 years unless you went to the teflon lined hoses. I guess the regular lines are just a normal rubber line with a braided wrap.
07-27-2008, 05:22 AM
#12
Race Director
I competely agree with Jeff here on the fuel setups and we really need to know you power level and or future mods. I have been running the LPE pump for 13k now and it supports a mere 750 rwhp and my other fueling upgrade was to convert my 99 to the older 97-98 return style setup so you may only need the real LPE pump as the Racetronixs have been problematic for years now
Not knocking the ECS setup as my buddy Mike-C5 has this on his boosted 99 and it works as advertised
Not knocking the ECS setup as my buddy Mike-C5 has this on his boosted 99 and it works as advertised
07-27-2008, 02:27 PM
#15
Le Mans Master
Arun@Cndperf dual pump system is supposed to be pretty nice aswell and handle some major HP. I doubt you could go wrong with either the Cndperf or ECS.
07-27-2008, 08:17 PM
#16
Race Director
Mine holds a solid 59 PSI at idle but any WOT in ANY gear drops it around 5 PSI. I still think its costing me some power up top. Wonder if the BAP should be moved...Sorry for the hijack, worried about my racetronix pump I just had installed as well
Last edited by vetterlatethannever; 07-27-2008 at 08:19 PM.
07-28-2008, 12:11 AM
#17
Supporting Vendor
Remember, there is nothing worse than rumors.
I agree, the ECS fuel system is a KILLER setup. But on an average boosted car, its a MAJOR overkill. On the other hand, it should be common knowledge that if you plan on power, you should just automaticaly budget it into your build.
Its like any other setup. There is a point in time where its necessary, and a point when its not. You didnt mention your power level, so I dont know if your over that threshhold. If you are, I wouldnt waste any time, and just go ahead and pick up the ECS kit. But if your in the mid 600 range (and plan on staying there), its not worth the cost. IMHO. (This is NOT a knock to the kit. Its no different than me telling my customer they dont need a KB 2.8 over a 2.6)
One thing I want to point out. Recently, there was an employee of a fairly large wiring company that most of us vendors use on a daily basis, that informed me that some fuel pump companys are NOT using the actual Walbro fuel pump. Apparently, there is a company out of china that is supplying Walbro knock off's at extremely cheap prices. These pumps look EXACTLY like the original Walbro that LPE sells. All the way down to the "Walbro" engraving on the housing. If you put them together, you physically can not tell the difference.
It often makes me wonder, why LPE never has failures, yet the other walbros tend to be plagued with problems.
If anyone wants the link to the "Knock Off" pumps, let me know. I dont think I am allowed to post it, cause it is mentioned on a non supporting vendors site.
Jersey Jay, if you'd like, I can PM you the link so that you can let me know if its acceptable.
Its like any other setup. There is a point in time where its necessary, and a point when its not. You didnt mention your power level, so I dont know if your over that threshhold. If you are, I wouldnt waste any time, and just go ahead and pick up the ECS kit. But if your in the mid 600 range (and plan on staying there), its not worth the cost. IMHO. (This is NOT a knock to the kit. Its no different than me telling my customer they dont need a KB 2.8 over a 2.6)
One thing I want to point out. Recently, there was an employee of a fairly large wiring company that most of us vendors use on a daily basis, that informed me that some fuel pump companys are NOT using the actual Walbro fuel pump. Apparently, there is a company out of china that is supplying Walbro knock off's at extremely cheap prices. These pumps look EXACTLY like the original Walbro that LPE sells. All the way down to the "Walbro" engraving on the housing. If you put them together, you physically can not tell the difference.
It often makes me wonder, why LPE never has failures, yet the other walbros tend to be plagued with problems.
If anyone wants the link to the "Knock Off" pumps, let me know. I dont think I am allowed to post it, cause it is mentioned on a non supporting vendors site.
Jersey Jay, if you'd like, I can PM you the link so that you can let me know if its acceptable.
Plagued with problems? I guess you would have to be in our shoes to know the numbers sold to determine if it was a plague or not. Does one problem in one hundred or less constitute a plague? Of the ones that do fail how many fail b/c of manufacturing defects and how many fail b/c of shortsightedness? Walbro sells tens of thousands of their HP pumps each year so it is no wonder we hear about failures from time to time and unfortunately people always tend to blame the product first.
There has yet to be a Chinese gerotor pump brought to market. Chinese pumps look considerably different when placed side by side with a Walbro. The case coatings, body crimps, embossing, size, checkvalves etc. are all different. Just b/c it has a black top and silver body does not make it a Walbro or a knockoff.
This is a link to the rumors that started it all: http://www.exelife.com/blog/automoti...-who-knew.html
We understand that none of these pumps ever hit our shore. Walbro's attorneys were all over the Chinese manufacturers at AAPEX that year. These pumps are actually smaller in size, had a matt finish and were of vane design (you do not see gears in the bottom but rather a plastic disc with vanes.) The C5 GRJ420 jet-pump was never copied by the Chinese.
Racetronix has always carried the Walbro line exclusively. All Racetronix C5 pump assemblies have come from LPE since May 2005. LPE has the same pump issues as everyone else. The difference is that LPE customers tend to pick up the phone or e-mail them instead of posting on the forums. We have sent a number of customer pumps back to LPE for testing. Only one pump to date tested bad due to contamination. In most cases there is something wrong with the customer's install or application.
This is a note from or C5 system ad that some people fail to read or understand:
Technical note:
The Racetronix fuel pump in this system is capable of supporting apx. 600RWHP @ 0.5 BSFC @ 58PSI (400KPa) using factory lines. In early model C5's with rail-mounted fuel pressure regulators the above HP support can be achieved. Addition of a pump voltage booster may increase support to apx. 700RWHP. Cars with superchargers, turbos and low battery voltage may see lower HP support numbers.
Late model C5's with the returnless rail system will not be able to achieve this level of HP support with the fuel system alone.
This is because the point of regulation is at the back of the car. The location of the FPR does not allow it compensate for line
pressure drop even though the pressure is stable at the back (regulator location). There are two options to get around this problem.
First is to convert the system to a rail mounted FRP return type (best). The second option is to install a pump booster which is
activated at the point where rail pressure starts to drop. The boost in fuel volume overwhelms the regulator / return line thereby
increasing the fuel pressure at the back of the car which translates to higher pressure at the rail. We recommend the MSD unit for
FI applications as it ramps the voltage based on manifold pressure. This prevents a short but abrupt fuel pressure spike which
causes the motor to hiccup from brief over-fueling. If you are using an instant-on N2O system then the KB BAP can be considered as well.
Please understand that this is not an issue with the Racetronix system but rather a design limitation of the factory configuration.
If you need to support more HP you may consider a Racetronix plug & play dual in-tank system from Lonnie's Performance. There are many cars out there now making up to and over 1000RWHP with this system and they have yet to run out of fuel
07-28-2008, 12:31 AM
#18
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Last edited by Rob@ChampionMotors; 07-28-2008 at 12:39 AM.
07-28-2008, 12:33 AM
#19
Team Owner
I agree, the ECS fuel system is a KILLER setup. But on an average boosted car, its a MAJOR overkill. On the other hand, it should be common knowledge that if you plan on power, you should just automaticaly budget it into your build.
Its like any other setup. There is a point in time where its necessary, and a point when its not. You didnt mention your power level, so I dont know if your over that threshhold. If you are, I wouldnt waste any time, and just go ahead and pick up the ECS kit. But if your in the mid 600 range (and plan on staying there), its not worth the cost. IMHO. (This is NOT a knock to the kit. Its no different than me telling my customer they dont need a KB 2.8 over a 2.6)
One thing I want to point out. Recently, there was an employee of a fairly large wiring company that most of us vendors use on a daily basis, that informed me that some fuel pump companys are NOT using the actual Walbro fuel pump. Apparently, there is a company out of china that is supplying Walbro knock off's at extremely cheap prices. These pumps look EXACTLY like the original Walbro that LPE sells. All the way down to the "Walbro" engraving on the housing. If you put them together, you physically can not tell the difference.
It often makes me wonder, why LPE never has failures, yet the other walbros tend to be plagued with problems.
If anyone wants the link to the "Knock Off" pumps, let me know. I dont think I am allowed to post it, cause it is mentioned on a non supporting vendors site.
Jersey Jay, if you'd like, I can PM you the link so that you can let me know if its acceptable.
Its like any other setup. There is a point in time where its necessary, and a point when its not. You didnt mention your power level, so I dont know if your over that threshhold. If you are, I wouldnt waste any time, and just go ahead and pick up the ECS kit. But if your in the mid 600 range (and plan on staying there), its not worth the cost. IMHO. (This is NOT a knock to the kit. Its no different than me telling my customer they dont need a KB 2.8 over a 2.6)
One thing I want to point out. Recently, there was an employee of a fairly large wiring company that most of us vendors use on a daily basis, that informed me that some fuel pump companys are NOT using the actual Walbro fuel pump. Apparently, there is a company out of china that is supplying Walbro knock off's at extremely cheap prices. These pumps look EXACTLY like the original Walbro that LPE sells. All the way down to the "Walbro" engraving on the housing. If you put them together, you physically can not tell the difference.
It often makes me wonder, why LPE never has failures, yet the other walbros tend to be plagued with problems.
If anyone wants the link to the "Knock Off" pumps, let me know. I dont think I am allowed to post it, cause it is mentioned on a non supporting vendors site.
Jersey Jay, if you'd like, I can PM you the link so that you can let me know if its acceptable.
07-28-2008, 12:38 AM
#20
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Member Since: Nov 2002
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My racetronic pump finally bit the dust. I'm a little dissapointed because I don't think I have 800 miles on it yet. It has acted strange from the start. Sometimes it would just not work then when I would try it again it would be fine. A couple of weeks ago it went out again and after trying all of the troubleshooting tricks I could think of I resorted to the low tech solution: I smacked the the gas tank and it took right off. The last time I went to drive the car it was fluctuating at first then came up to pressure so I thought all was good. About a half mile down the road it quit all together. When I went to drain the gas out of the tank I hooked it up directly to the battery with the jumper that came with the pump kit and it ran, but very slowly. It actually did pretty well when it was working and supported some pretty good horsepower #s with the help of the meth kit, but when I went forged and upped the boost level it was on the ragged edge so I think it's time to upgrade .
So now I've got to decide which system to go with. They all seem to have their good & bad points.
Some are easier to install.
Some screw right into the gas tank - kind of scary.
Some require a huge hole in the tank - kind of scary
Some come with fuel rails - some don't.
Some convert the system to a return style. Necessary or not?????
Some are all contained in the tank - others aren't
Some look like really good systems but when you add up the cost individual components I can't justify the cost of the package.
I've read a lot of threads in the archives and there seem to be valid arguments for many different systems. But, I've got to make a decision soon or my car will be spending the rest of the summer on jack stands.
So many choices.
So now I've got to decide which system to go with. They all seem to have their good & bad points.
Some are easier to install.
Some screw right into the gas tank - kind of scary.
Some require a huge hole in the tank - kind of scary
Some come with fuel rails - some don't.
Some convert the system to a return style. Necessary or not?????
Some are all contained in the tank - others aren't
Some look like really good systems but when you add up the cost individual components I can't justify the cost of the package.
I've read a lot of threads in the archives and there seem to be valid arguments for many different systems. But, I've got to make a decision soon or my car will be spending the rest of the summer on jack stands.
So many choices.
for more than 15 years , I also used this in my twin turbo Z06 without a problem. I guess you have bad luck.