METH better than E-85. Dyno comparison INSIDE!
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
well guys I went back to the dyno on the pump and meth tune. So e85 is not that bad at all It actually made more power than meth+pump. I think there is something wrong with my motor probably because with pump meth now it only made 570/460 ... I might have a dead cyl or something like that. I will post the dyno later this week so you guys can see the diff. Only thing I changed was the fuel, same dyno and weather conditions.
Hope everything is well with the motor - this thread title is misleading now.... 
<--- runs E85
Former Vendor
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 2
From: Dallas Texas
Here is the deal with E85- Its main advantage is the cooling effect. You need to tune on LA, not AFR. AFR is really inaccurate. Shoot for a .85-.87 lambda, and you will see the gains. If you calculated that to AFR on gas, it would be in the 13s.
You will never see the knock sensors go off on E, as itll melt stuff before it pings, and really, itll just lean misfire first before it hurts stuff.
I have a lot of experience with it, and its great stuff, but at your power level, its not really a big gain.
Also, the fuel % doesnt vary much at all. The anti knock qualities of E70 vs E85 are nearly identical. The only thing that changes is the total fueling of the added or removed gas vs ethanol content.
Keep at it, youll get it!
Louis
You will never see the knock sensors go off on E, as itll melt stuff before it pings, and really, itll just lean misfire first before it hurts stuff.
I have a lot of experience with it, and its great stuff, but at your power level, its not really a big gain.
Also, the fuel % doesnt vary much at all. The anti knock qualities of E70 vs E85 are nearly identical. The only thing that changes is the total fueling of the added or removed gas vs ethanol content.
Keep at it, youll get it!
Louis
Advanced
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
I wouldn't tune anyone's car on AFR no matter what they are running fuel wise...EVER. Lambda only...Im really surprised many tuners out there still dont change the stoich table in cars they tune when they know there is ethanol in the fuel everywhere now.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,797
Likes: 52
From: Boise
Here is the deal with E85- Its main advantage is the cooling effect. You need to tune on LA, not AFR. AFR is really inaccurate. Shoot for a .85-.87 lambda, and you will see the gains. If you calculated that to AFR on gas, it would be in the 13s.
You will never see the knock sensors go off on E, as itll melt stuff before it pings, and really, itll just lean misfire first before it hurts stuff.
I have a lot of experience with it, and its great stuff, but at your power level, its not really a big gain.
Also, the fuel % doesnt vary much at all. The anti knock qualities of E70 vs E85 are nearly identical. The only thing that changes is the total fueling of the added or removed gas vs ethanol content.
Keep at it, youll get it!
Louis
You will never see the knock sensors go off on E, as itll melt stuff before it pings, and really, itll just lean misfire first before it hurts stuff.
I have a lot of experience with it, and its great stuff, but at your power level, its not really a big gain.
Also, the fuel % doesnt vary much at all. The anti knock qualities of E70 vs E85 are nearly identical. The only thing that changes is the total fueling of the added or removed gas vs ethanol content.
Keep at it, youll get it!
Louis
Wideband's measure lambda, they report whatever fuel they are calibrated for.
To say AFR is really inaccurate is not only wrong but a poor use of scientific terminology
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,797
Likes: 52
From: Boise
To elaborate a little more on my previous post.
The wideband is always reading lambda, they are calibrated for a specific type of fuel (usually gasoline) and then when lambda = 1 then they report the stoich ratio for that fuel. So for gasoline when lambda = 1 then what you will actually see is 14.68
If your wideband is calibrated for gasoline, and you are running E85, when lambda = 1 it's still going to show 14.68.
Therefore if you want to shoot for .85 lambda on E85 like Louis said, you would target 12.48 as it would be displayed on a gasoline calibrated wideband.
The reason targeting a leaner mixture on E85 is stupid is because of the following:
1) E85 is an oxygenated fuel, you may have heard the saying on gasoline "leaner is meaner", this is NOT true with E85
2) It has been shown that there is no significant HP increase running E85 at 12.5:1 vs 11.5:1 (gasoline calibrated wideband)
3) People have found, however, that running the E85 richer rather than leaner often lets you get away with more timing and thus results in some more power
Hope this helps
The wideband is always reading lambda, they are calibrated for a specific type of fuel (usually gasoline) and then when lambda = 1 then they report the stoich ratio for that fuel. So for gasoline when lambda = 1 then what you will actually see is 14.68
If your wideband is calibrated for gasoline, and you are running E85, when lambda = 1 it's still going to show 14.68.
Therefore if you want to shoot for .85 lambda on E85 like Louis said, you would target 12.48 as it would be displayed on a gasoline calibrated wideband.
The reason targeting a leaner mixture on E85 is stupid is because of the following:
1) E85 is an oxygenated fuel, you may have heard the saying on gasoline "leaner is meaner", this is NOT true with E85
2) It has been shown that there is no significant HP increase running E85 at 12.5:1 vs 11.5:1 (gasoline calibrated wideband)
3) People have found, however, that running the E85 richer rather than leaner often lets you get away with more timing and thus results in some more power
Hope this helps
Last edited by Milan; Apr 25, 2011 at 11:35 PM. Reason: spelling
Former Vendor
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 2
From: Dallas Texas
To elaborate a little more on my previous post.
The wideband is always reading lambda, they are calibrated for a specific type of fuel (usually gasoline) and then when lambda = 1 then they report the stoich ratio for that fuel. So for gasoline when lambda = 1 then what you will actually see is 14.68
If your wideband is calibrated for gasoline, and you are running E85, when lambda = 1 it's still going to show 14.68.
Therefore if you want to shoot for .85 lambda on E85 like Louis said, you would target 12.48 as it would be displayed on a gasoline calibrated wideband.
The reason targeting a leaner mixture on E85 is stupid is because of the following:
1) E85 is an oxygenated fuel, you may have heard the saying on gasoline "leaner is meaner", this is NOT true with E85
2) It has been shown that there is no significant HP increase running E85 at 12.5:1 vs 11.5:1 (gasoline calibrated wideband)
3) People have found, however, that running the E85 richer rather than leaner often lets you get away with more timing and thus results in some more power
Hope this helps
The wideband is always reading lambda, they are calibrated for a specific type of fuel (usually gasoline) and then when lambda = 1 then they report the stoich ratio for that fuel. So for gasoline when lambda = 1 then what you will actually see is 14.68
If your wideband is calibrated for gasoline, and you are running E85, when lambda = 1 it's still going to show 14.68.
Therefore if you want to shoot for .85 lambda on E85 like Louis said, you would target 12.48 as it would be displayed on a gasoline calibrated wideband.
The reason targeting a leaner mixture on E85 is stupid is because of the following:
1) E85 is an oxygenated fuel, you may have heard the saying on gasoline "leaner is meaner", this is NOT true with E85
2) It has been shown that there is no significant HP increase running E85 at 12.5:1 vs 11.5:1 (gasoline calibrated wideband)
3) People have found, however, that running the E85 richer rather than leaner often lets you get away with more timing and thus results in some more power
Hope this helps
You also stated, previously,
I don't have E85 tuning experience, just know a lot of people running it from when I lived in Colorado. I don't think leaner = meaner on E85. I think it will make more power the more you can throw in there provided it can combust.
The last 4 months, Ive had a MAJOR role in building 3 supras, all over 1100 rwhp, all on E85, two of which went 8s, one made 1200rwhp.
Ive had my fair share of building, tuning, and racing E85 powered Vehicles. Im finishing up an E85 fueled ZR1 now.
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Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,797
Likes: 52
From: Boise
Further more, most shops and tuners are capable of building high HP cars, very few understand the physics/chemistry behind tuning.
At the end of the day, essentially everything about your initial post was wrong.
Here's where you were incorrect specifically:
1) Widebands measure in lambda. For the sake of argument, if you have an AEM wideband, and lambda = 1, then it will show 14.68 on the gasoline setting. It doesn't matter if you have E85, methanol, gasoline, or rubbing alcohol in the tank, the WB will displaye 14.68 when lambda =1.
2) "AFR is really inaccurate", actually your statement is inaccurate.
3) If you calculated AFR of .85-.87 lambda for gasoline that would be 12.478 and 12.771 respectively. So clearly not "in the 13s" like you stated.
So good for you if you tune your own cars, but I wouldn't let you touch mine if it was for free.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,399
Likes: 30
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,088
Likes: 1,829
From: Metro Detroit Michigan
Why does it matter which scale the display is set to (as long as you know which, and know what to do with it)? Either way, it's measuring the same thing.
Louis, why is having the display set to lambda better?
Louis, why is having the display set to lambda better?
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Dont be. Search around. Not on this forum but others that have really used this fuel. Its beyond amazing, if you have it at your local stations and are not taking advantage of it you dont know what you are missing. Cooling affects, 105 octane, virtually no detonation even when you **** up. Take a look at some of the big boys and see that they are running it over race gas and getting better results for the money.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,396
Likes: 15
Personally, I can tell you he was able to make my '08 LS3 N/A C6 with a race cam put down 517 RWHP and still make it drive like a ***** cat.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 3
From: Dallas TX
I can't speak for anyone else but I have found the best results with .78-.82 La on E85. I don't think this is unusual or new to anyone.
Louis, did you do the tuning on those Supras? I was told by their owners that Darren tuned all three of them?
Either way, fast cars for sure
Louis, did you do the tuning on those Supras? I was told by their owners that Darren tuned all three of them?
Either way, fast cars for sure
