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Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'?

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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 01:27 PM
  #21  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (Pipes)

SilverStateZ06,

The context is pretty simple, "Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'?".

BTW, is anyone else having difficulty understanding this question?
Nope :) Nitrous is not considered forced induction. Whew.. Now let's go grab a beer :cheers: :D
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 01:29 PM
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

SilverState,

Yes. You're reading way too much into this.

Now, off for a beer! :leaving:
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 01:59 PM
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

Let's take these in order:

Pipes,

You're right nitrous is nitrous and nitrous is not a blower, not a turbo, and not a naturally aspirated motor. But look at the question. Is nitrous considered forced induction. Did you just want everyone to answer and say, nitrous is nitrous? Implicit in your question is whether nitrous is similar to forced induction, enough to be considered forced induction by some. If you look at the opposite of forced induction, namely natural aspiration, then it makes sense to see which of the two categories is more appropriate to put nitrous in. Now I know fathers do not like to lose arguments to their children, so I understand you willingness to now just answer your own question by saying nitrous is nitrous, but why did you ask the question then if you don't want to hear why some people would categorize nitrous as forced induction?

As for whether you like nitrous or not, makes no difference to me. I like turbos (when done right with all the other things needed to make them work), but think they are somewhat expensive. Other than the Cartek guys with their awesome n/a setups, look at which cars e.t. the best - nitrous. Again, I point this out because I am result oriented.

99BlackFRC,

According to this forum member, I am not naturally aspirated. Please see above for why I am illustrating that nitrous is more akin to forced induction than natural aspiration. See below for why I think nitrous cars cannot be considered naturally aspirated.

96ViperGTS,

This member says it is plain and simple that nitrous cars are natrually aspirated. That begs the question, "what does it mean to be natural?" Let's do this the way Justice Scalia would do it - look at the plain meaning of the word.

Webster says that natural is: 1) existing in or formed by nature (opposed to artificial), 2) gorwing or arising spontaneously, 3) having undergone little or no processing and containing no chemical additives, 4) happening in the ordinary or usual course of things, without intervention, 5) not treated, in its original or raw state.

Webster says spontaneous is: 1) coming or resulting from a natural tendency, without effort, 2) arising from internal forces, independent of external forces.

Webster says artificial is: 1) made or produced by humans (opposed to natural), 2) lacking naturalness or spontaneity; FORCED, 3) chemical in composition.

Webster says forced is: 1) an influence on a system, producing a change in movement or other effects, 2) to grown at an increased rate by artificial means, 3) unnatural.

Air exists in nature. Air enters the motor naturally through the airbox, through the mass air, through the tbody, through the intake, and ultimately into the combustion chamber where power is generated igniting the air and fuel that has entered it via a spark plug.

Nitous oxide does not exist in nature. It is artificial. You combine two atoms of nitrogen and one atom of oxygen and end up with a molucules, namely N2O. Nitrogen and oxygen are processed and chemically combined. Aditives such as sulphur are used, and ultimately, the treated product is sold for use in automobiles.

Now let's look at whether this artificial product spontaneously makes its way into the combustion chamber. Spontaneous induction is when your car sucks air into the car without any outside interference. As said before, from the airbox, through the mass air, through the tbody, through the intake, and into the combustion chambers. That is spontaneous or natural induction. However, when outside forced are used that change the result, and cause more air (including oxygen) (and fuel for that matter) to be delivered, the induction is no longer spontaneous or natural, the induction is artificial. And according to Webster's definition of artificial, that induction could be considered forced. Why forced, because there was an outside influence on the induction system that caused the amount of air entering the combustion chamber to grow in an artifical way.

CONCLUSION:

So, if you are looking for a short answer, yes, nitrous is nitrous. If you are looking for a little more, nitrous is more similar to other forms of forced induction that it is to natural aspiration. As such, between the two categories, it can be, and is by me, considered to be a type of forced induction. If you are using three categories, n/a, nitrous, and forced induction, then obviously, nitrous is nitrous.

If you still are skeptical of whether nitrous is more akin to forced induction than natural aspiration, look at some of the racing organizations that separate cars based on whether they are n/a for have forced induction. You will see that the nitrous cars run in the same classes as the blower/turbo guys. To do otherwise would be ludicrous and a lot of the n/a guys would be at a severe disadvantage.
You must have a lot of time on your hands to go through all of that. The induction of nitrous is NOT artificial. It is true that most nitrous nozzles are right in front of the throttle body and are spraying into the intake but this is just to make the delivery more efficient. Technically you could fog N20 into the airbox, the engine would suck it through the filter, through the MAF and into the intake. In your mind would it still be forced induction?? :confused: That's absurd. Nitrous is N/A. There is no manifold pressure. The engine is still under vacuum. End of discussion.

BTW Naturally Aprirated means to breath in naturally. It doesnt matter what you are breathing so long as you are doing it without any assistance.


[Modified by 96VIPERGTS, 2:28 PM 8/20/2003]
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 02:03 PM
  #24  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (96VIPERGTS)

Viper,

You are being "absurd" if you think nitrous cars are naturally aspirated.

Why don't we just run all the nitrous cars against all the cars with no power adders and see if they run the same - that should enlighten you.
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 02:32 PM
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

Like I said, N20 is NA. No amount of definitions will change that.

Why don't we just run all the nitrous cars against all the cars with no power adders and see if they run the same - that should enlighten you.
What would that prove. A H/C car could be just as fast as a N20 car. Are you saying that makes if forced induction. Here is the question: What about N20 makes it FORCED induction. How is it being FORCED into the engine. Why dont you take your nozzle turn it around where it faces the front of the car and you will see under WOT the motor will still suck it in even though the nitrous is being sprayed away from the intake. WOW it really sounds like forced induction to me... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


[Modified by 96VIPERGTS, 2:38 PM 8/20/2003]
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 04:56 PM
  #26  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (96VIPERGTS)

Now this discusion has me thinking. What kinda power would you get if you hooked up a 200lb N20 bottle with at 5000psi, ran it though a 10psi regulator, and ran it rite into the motor at keeping 10lbs on the manifold with strait N20 and fuel with a 10gal/sec feul pump. Hmmmm, can you say forced injection? :lol: :lol: :smash: :smash: I'll take 4300 hp for $500 please.
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:14 PM
  #27  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (Allgonoshow)

Nothing natural about nitrous. It is artificial - it is chemically manufactured and does not occur in nature. The lack of pressure used does not make it any more natural. And if you look at what I said, you will see that I noted the difference in pressure and said nitrous was more akin to forced induction than it is to natural aspiration - I also said everyone agrees nitrous is different from a blower or a turbo. If there were three categories: 1)n/a, 2)nitrous, and 3) nitrous - then nitrous would be categorized as nitrous. If there are two categories: 1) n/a and 2) forced induction - the forced induction category would be more appropriate.

Imagine if the n/a tuners have a contest to see who can make more power on the dyno with a stock cubed natrually aspirated LS6.

One of the tuners says "hey, they said naturally aspirated, so that means I can spray nitrous."

If that tuner wins the contest, does that mean he is the best n/a tuner?
:bs
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:31 PM
  #28  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

I don't think you are thinking about it the right way. IMO the word "naturally" in naturally aspirated indicated what ever is taking in air is doing so on it's own power. It does not mean the gas being taken in is a "natural" gas. It doesnt matter if the engine or lung or whatever you may be talking about is taking in oxygen, nitrous, or cyanide, if it is doing so without the help of any other device it is considered NATURALLY ASPIRATED.
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:33 PM
  #29  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

Nothing natural about nitrous. It is artificial - it is chemically manufactured and does not occur in nature. The lack of pressure used does not make it any more natural
I assume by this argument that you mean that it cannot be called "naturally aspirated" because the substance is not found in nature.. The term N/A refers to the method of air delivery into the engine - natually, as in not forced into the motor.. The fact that N20 doesn't exist as is in nature has nothing to do with the NA term.
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:36 PM
  #30  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (99blackFRC)

Hello, a nitrous unit is a device that is introducing the nitrous oxide into the motor - it is an ouside influence. It is not being naturally induced, it is being introduced by a device that is external to the natural induction system. :lolg:
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:38 PM
  #31  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

99BlackFRC,

Above, I asked if you would consider my car on nitrous to be naturally aspirated.

You responded that NO, YOU WOULD NOT CONSIDER MY CAR TO BE NATURALLY ASPIRATED.
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:38 PM
  #32  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

Now I think you're just reaching.... :lol:
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:40 PM
  #33  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

Pipes,

Up above, your response to my question about whether my car on nitrous was naturally aspirated was: "YOU'RE RIGHT, NITROU ISN'T NATURALLY ASPIRATED, I'D SAY IT WAS NITROUS."
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:47 PM
  #34  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

99BlackFRC,

Above, I asked if you would consider my car on nitrous to be naturally aspirated.

You responded that NO, YOU WOULD NOT CONSIDER MY CAR TO BE NATURALLY ASPIRATED.
ahh, but now we're back into those nit picky definitions of terms again. I believe the delivery method of your N20 is 100% NATURALLY ASPIRATED, and in no way forced, IMO of course. Now, whether we speak of your N20 car as being N/A at the track for class reasons, well that's different.. I'd say no, but only because people generally do not call N20 cars N/A because to say a car is running N/A, people generally mean there is no power adder what so ever - nitrous, turbo or SC. It's all a play on words when we're throwing out terms like this, right?..
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:51 PM
  #35  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (99blackFRC)

I believe the delivery method of your N20 is 100% NATURALLY ASPIRATED
:iagree: :withstupid:

It is silly to say it isn't NA because the substance isn't natural.

BTW is gasoline considered natural? How much gasoline have you ever seen laying around in puddles?
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Old Aug 20, 2003 | 05:59 PM
  #36  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (96VIPERGTS)

gasoline is injected, not aspirated
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Old Aug 21, 2003 | 12:12 AM
  #37  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

Now you are just being silly. You know deep down in your heart what the answer is. Go check the poll. :smash:
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Old Aug 21, 2003 | 01:12 AM
  #38  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (96VIPERGTS)

Since you are the one that thinks a car on nitrous is naturally aspirated, then that's what the poll should ask.

The poll should say: "Is a car on nitrous naturally aspirated?"

Read the responses - the consensus would most likely be no.

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if I could race my nitrous cars against cars without power adders, but it doesn't look like that will happen. Until then, I have to race my nitrous cars against other nitrous cars and cars with superchargers or turbos.
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Old Aug 21, 2003 | 02:12 AM
  #39  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SilverStateZ06)

There is a funny thing about the number of polls taken on the forum but to have multiple post running concurrently on the exact same topic is silly
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Old Aug 21, 2003 | 10:25 AM
  #40  
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Default Re: Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'? (SpinMonster)

Originally the topic was started and people just argued so I started a poll to put it to rest.

What I originally said was if there are two catagories NA and FI N20 falls into NA 100% of the time. Now if you go start a poll asking "Would you consider N20 to be NA?" most people would say no, it is in a grey area. If I had to put a yes or no on that question it could be either. Yes because the motor is under vacuum or no because it is unfair to catagorize a N20 car with a non n20 NA car. If you started a poll asking if N20 is FI I bet most people would say no to that as well. It doesnt fit into either catagory very well but it is much closer to NA.

But I stick to my original comment. If you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO PUT A N20 CAR INTO NA OR FI WITH NO OTHER CHOICES IT WILL BE NA EVERY TIME. In the perfect world you would have NA and power adder classes but I found out at NOPI that isnt always the case.

BTW it is interesting to get other opinions on these types of discussions.


[Modified by 96VIPERGTS, 10:37 AM 8/21/2003]
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