Orangepeel a problem on Corvettes?
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,209
Likes: 12
From: Montgomery Alabama
Cruise-In VII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '06
Some other countries don't have the regulations like the USA (thanks, EPA), and their paint process, even paint is totally different. Some better, some not.
Typically, 20 to 40 hours of work will take care of the orange peel look. Just watch Americal Hotrod. Charlie always wet-sands Boyd's cars, and they look phenomonal!
Typically, 20 to 40 hours of work will take care of the orange peel look. Just watch Americal Hotrod. Charlie always wet-sands Boyd's cars, and they look phenomonal!
Administrator
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: In a parallel universe. Currently own 2014 Stingray Coupe.
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Just one of the things you live with in the C5. Mine has some orange peel in the paint.
Pro
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 637
Likes: 0
From: Laurel MD
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17
Yep, it's standard equipment my friend. My 03 Z06 and my 05 GMC Sierra have orange peel galore, they really should add it to the sticker IMO. 
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,308
Likes: 1
From: The Beautiful Greater Bay Area California
Originally Posted by VLVETTE
Nature of the beast 
I pulled up along side a newer BMW the other day and it had it's share of orange peel and he probably paid about the same for his car as I did mine. But I had him beat on the coolness factor
I pulled up along side a newer BMW the other day and it had it's share of orange peel and he probably paid about the same for his car as I did mine. But I had him beat on the coolness factor
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,625
Likes: 1
From: Rhode Island
Originally Posted by SeaLawyer
It's a texture in the paint that looks like the surface of an orange... LOTS of tiny dimples... In a custom paint job, they wetsand it smooth before shooting the clear.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,625
Likes: 1
From: Rhode Island
Originally Posted by JDs00PewterCoupe
Just one of the things you live with in the C5. Mine has some orange peel in the paint.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,417
Likes: 2
From: Annapolis MD
Originally Posted by cbx1047cc
I think you mean they wet sand it smooth after shooting the clear. You don't sand the flat base coat. The orange peel is in the clear coat.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,625
Likes: 1
From: Rhode Island
Originally Posted by SeaLawyer
Actually orange peel can be in either...
I am talking about 2 part urethane, what kind of paint are you referring to?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,625
Likes: 1
From: Rhode Island
This excerpt is from the Mobileworks detailing forum: This should help.
Why sand an entire vehicle?
You may wonder why it would be necessary to sand an entire vehicle? Or, why wet sand a car after it has been painted? Shouldn't a new paint job look great? You may also ask that if wet sanding is so aggressive, how is it supposed to make the paint look better? Many vehicles have what's called "orange peel" in their paint. This is a hill and valley effect, or as the name implies, looks like the skin of an orange. Orange peel is caused by the clear coat not flowing or "laying out" as smooth as you would like. This gives a slight hill and valley effect that some people just don't like in their paint jobs. This effect will slightly diminish the overall gloss and clarity of the paint job, so some people choose to have this sanded out of the paint job to increase the vehicles shine.
Most factory paint jobs have some degree of orange peel, as well as many refinish paint jobs. Some paint jobs have other blemishes such as dirt nibs, dust, runs or sags, or environmental problems that have penetrated deep into the clear coat. In all these instances simple compounding or polishing alone will not eliminate the problem.
Wet sanding, followed by compounding and polishing is the only way to create that absolutely perfect finish.
Why sand an entire vehicle?
You may wonder why it would be necessary to sand an entire vehicle? Or, why wet sand a car after it has been painted? Shouldn't a new paint job look great? You may also ask that if wet sanding is so aggressive, how is it supposed to make the paint look better? Many vehicles have what's called "orange peel" in their paint. This is a hill and valley effect, or as the name implies, looks like the skin of an orange. Orange peel is caused by the clear coat not flowing or "laying out" as smooth as you would like. This gives a slight hill and valley effect that some people just don't like in their paint jobs. This effect will slightly diminish the overall gloss and clarity of the paint job, so some people choose to have this sanded out of the paint job to increase the vehicles shine.
Most factory paint jobs have some degree of orange peel, as well as many refinish paint jobs. Some paint jobs have other blemishes such as dirt nibs, dust, runs or sags, or environmental problems that have penetrated deep into the clear coat. In all these instances simple compounding or polishing alone will not eliminate the problem.
Wet sanding, followed by compounding and polishing is the only way to create that absolutely perfect finish.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
From: Tucson AZ
Originally Posted by cbx1047cc
Orange peel is not a Corvette thing, it's a paint thing. It is not unique to General Motors.
I saw a black 7 series beemer and a black Q45 at the carwash yesterday that were a lot worse than my Lemans blue.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,417
Likes: 2
From: Annapolis MD
Originally Posted by cbx1047cc
I guess you could have orange peel in the flat base coat if you put in on with a paint brush. I am talking about 2 part urethane, what kind of paint are you referring to?
I am talking about 2 part urethane, what kind of paint are you referring to?
Orange Peel: A paint surface with a texture of "hills and valleys" similar to the skin of an orange. Excessive orange peel is considered a paint defect. It can be reduced by sanding, compounding, and polishing. Definition by 3M Corporation
Dan Stauft was a Paint Process Engineer at the Corvette manufacturing facility in Bowling Green, Kentucky back in October of 1995. At that time, he was a member of the ZR-1 Net - an online group of Corvette enthusiasts dedicated to the 1990 - 1995 ZR-1 Corvettes. A common complaint from many of the members was the amount of "orange peel" present in the 1984 - 1995 Corvette as compared to competitive European models. Dan was kind enough to offer the following explanation and we would like to thank him for his time in putting this response together:
The majority of Corvette complaints that I am aware of concern excessive Orange Peel relative to other manufacturers (i.e.) Lexus, Mazda, Porsche...). I would like to explain some of the causes of orange peel and a reason that US cars seem to have this problem more often than the other manufacturers.
Orange peel is the result of an applied coat of paint (basecoat, clearcoat, or both) that doesn't flow out or level fully. Keeping in mind that paint is basically applied as a liquified plastic, the cause of peel is that the paint either doesn't stay liquid long enough to completely flow or the material is to viscous to allow it to flow out. In either case, the paint ceases to flow before the surface is completely level. The result of this is a lumpy orlopey surface that resembles the peel of an orange, hence "orange peel. So, to eliminiate this problem, you lower the viscosity or simply keep the paint liquid longer, right? This may not be a s easy as it seems. Solvent-borne paints are categorized by the ratio of paint solids (resins, pigments, binders, etc.) to liquids (solvents).
1986 Corvette Paint ChipsIn the US, manufacturers are required to use high solids paints, with a ratio of about 60% solids to 40% solvent. To better flow the paint out, we need to add more solvent. The problem is that the EPA won't let us add aditional solvents. These solvent restrictins stem from the EPA's limits on Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs). VOCs, which are in almost all solvents, are a cause of low level ozone - read smog - forcing these restrictions. In other countries, these restrictions either don't exist or are more lenient, allowing manufacturers to use low solids paints (as low as 30% solids to 70% solvent), which tend to have a smoother appearance. To combat the US handicap generated partially by EPA restrictions, paint companies are developing new technologies.
Waterborne paints, for example, are essentially low solids paints (up to 60% solvent), but they are legal because de-ionized water (not VOC) is a large part of the solvent package. In addition to the low solids aspect, waterborne paints have many other neat properties that help improve the performance and appearance.
As the new technology paints and application methods are implemented (within the next year or so for Corvette, US manufacturers will have the ability to level the appearance playing field between themselves and the international competition.
Dan Stauft
Paint Process Engineer
GM Bowling Green Assembly
Dan Stauft was a Paint Process Engineer at the Corvette manufacturing facility in Bowling Green, Kentucky back in October of 1995. At that time, he was a member of the ZR-1 Net - an online group of Corvette enthusiasts dedicated to the 1990 - 1995 ZR-1 Corvettes. A common complaint from many of the members was the amount of "orange peel" present in the 1984 - 1995 Corvette as compared to competitive European models. Dan was kind enough to offer the following explanation and we would like to thank him for his time in putting this response together:
The majority of Corvette complaints that I am aware of concern excessive Orange Peel relative to other manufacturers (i.e.) Lexus, Mazda, Porsche...). I would like to explain some of the causes of orange peel and a reason that US cars seem to have this problem more often than the other manufacturers.
Orange peel is the result of an applied coat of paint (basecoat, clearcoat, or both) that doesn't flow out or level fully. Keeping in mind that paint is basically applied as a liquified plastic, the cause of peel is that the paint either doesn't stay liquid long enough to completely flow or the material is to viscous to allow it to flow out. In either case, the paint ceases to flow before the surface is completely level. The result of this is a lumpy orlopey surface that resembles the peel of an orange, hence "orange peel. So, to eliminiate this problem, you lower the viscosity or simply keep the paint liquid longer, right? This may not be a s easy as it seems. Solvent-borne paints are categorized by the ratio of paint solids (resins, pigments, binders, etc.) to liquids (solvents).
1986 Corvette Paint ChipsIn the US, manufacturers are required to use high solids paints, with a ratio of about 60% solids to 40% solvent. To better flow the paint out, we need to add more solvent. The problem is that the EPA won't let us add aditional solvents. These solvent restrictins stem from the EPA's limits on Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs). VOCs, which are in almost all solvents, are a cause of low level ozone - read smog - forcing these restrictions. In other countries, these restrictions either don't exist or are more lenient, allowing manufacturers to use low solids paints (as low as 30% solids to 70% solvent), which tend to have a smoother appearance. To combat the US handicap generated partially by EPA restrictions, paint companies are developing new technologies.
Waterborne paints, for example, are essentially low solids paints (up to 60% solvent), but they are legal because de-ionized water (not VOC) is a large part of the solvent package. In addition to the low solids aspect, waterborne paints have many other neat properties that help improve the performance and appearance.
As the new technology paints and application methods are implemented (within the next year or so for Corvette, US manufacturers will have the ability to level the appearance playing field between themselves and the international competition.
Dan Stauft
Paint Process Engineer
GM Bowling Green Assembly
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,227
Likes: 15
St. Jude Donor '06
While I was at the NCM a few weekends ago, they had 2 LeMans Blue C6s (1 convert, 1 Coupe) on display. I couldn't believe how much orange peel was in the paint. My 97 nassau blue has some in it but nothing compared to those two new babies on display. I figured Gm was trying to save money by applying thinner coats of paint but hellifiknow. Maybe it was the angle I was looking at them from. They were up a few feet higher than me. As I recall, GM had a new system for painting the XLR body panels and since the XLR and Vette are in the same plant (although they are on different lines) who knows!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,625
Likes: 1
From: Rhode Island
Originally Posted by SeaLawyer
I'm not the Paint Process Engineer for the GM Bowling Green Assembly plant, but I'll take his word for it...
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,625
Likes: 1
From: Rhode Island
Originally Posted by SeaLawyer
It's a texture in the paint that looks like the surface of an orange... LOTS of tiny dimples... In a custom paint job, they wetsand it smooth before shooting the clear.
