OL=3° That's not too bad for a daily driver right?
IVC=41°

Based on what I've been reaing, I was trying to stay under .600 lift, OL less than 5°, and IVC under 46°, and no larger than 228/232 duration. How do you think these parameters fit me for a daily driver??

 

You want to keep your IVC under at or below 44 for decent daily drivability and really at or under 42 for real good drivability. You will also notice the 3 degrees of positive overlap while your cam is idling but it really isn't too bad.

You already know how I feel about a cam choice in a stock unmilled head, stock head gasket, daily driver. Any intake duration larger than a 222 will have to be too far advanced with less than optimum VE's to get optimum DCR for this use and combination. Sure, people do it all the time, but they are making a compromise for bragging about their higher dyno number versus having a better under the curve powerband.

Since you are wanting to stay under .600 lift, my recommendation is to consider one of the XER 222 intake duration cams I speced. But of course, that is just my opinion.

Hammer

 

Hammer, I always welcome and look forward to your opinions. Thank you. Is the DCR directly related to the OL? Is a DCR lower than 8.5 bad for a DD car?

222/228 .581/.588 112+4 DCR=8.51:1 (IVC:39 EVO:50 OL:+1)

This was the only one that you recommended that had positive overlap.

Can you give me a couple of options with a 224 to 228 intake duration with around a 44 IVC and positive overlap with a good DCR?

 

Ok, I'm looking at the PianoProdigy spreadsheet I found on ls1tech.com. If I'm doing this right I get these:

XER 222/222 .581/.581 110+0 (IVC:41 OL:2 DCR 8.48:1)
XER 222/224 .581/.581 112+2 (IVC:41 OL:-1 DCR 8.48:1)
XER 222/226 .581/.581 110+0 (IVC:41 OL:4 DCR 8.48:1)

XER 224/224 .581/.581 110+2 (IVC:40 OL:4 DCR 8.55:1)
XER 224/226 .581/.581 112+2 (IVC:42 OL:1 DCR 8.41:1)
XER 224/226 .581/.581 110+2 (IVC:40 OL:5 DCR 8.55:1)

XER 226/230 .585/.592 112+4 (IVC:41 OL:4 DCR 8.48:1)
XER 226/228 .585/.588 112+4 (IVC:41 OL:3 DCR 8.48:1)
XER 226/226 .585/.585 112+4 (IVC:41 OL:2 DCR 8.48:1)

Somewhat in the correct VE range right?

 

Sounds like a good choice to me. Not to mention his grinds make some good torque numbers. Right now they are working on two turbo tran am cars that should be using 90mm turbos.

 

TRUST me that MAN (FUTRAL) really knows this LSX stuff big time and is a PREMIER TUNER in the LSX World and by the way I am not implying that HAMMER does know this LS Performance stuff as he really seems to be on top of this LS cam stuff and then some!!

 

What changes (hp,tq,idle) by using .620 lift on the intake vs. .585 lift (XER) for the 226 duration? This just allows more air/fuel in for combustion correct?

 

In Piano prodigy's calculator...make sure you are using these numbers for stock heads and stock bottom end:

Bore 3.898
stroke 3.622
Rod length 6.098
number of cylinders 8
Deck height -.006
piston dome or dish 0
head gasket .054
cylinder head volume 64.45

Also...to be more accurate...use the manual calculator and add about 3 degrees to the .006" duration numbers. The reason is that comp's cams are typically ground larger than advertised and the seat to seat duration usually 2-4 degrees larger than spec.

You can usually add 1-2 degree to the .050" numbers. This will get you a more real world look at the VE's.

Also, i recommend that you typically advance the cam until the .050" EVC and and IVO are biased towards the intake.

In the case of your:
XER 222/222 .581/.581 110+0 (IVC:41 OL:2 DCR 8.48:1)

I get 8.39:1 for DCR. Now if I fudge the numbers for real world and changing the seat to seat suration to 274 and the .050" duration to 223 then I get these VE's: IVO 1.5...IVC 41.5...EVO...41.5...EVC 1.5...OL 3 and DCR of 8.29:1

I would then probably advance it some more to bring DCR up and bias the VE's towards the intake side...+1 brings DCR up to 8.35:1....+2 is 8.42:1....any more advancing would most likely bring the VE's too far off center here. So then I'd add some exhaust duration to balance up the exhaust side when advanced +2 degrees plus it will allow the Z06 to breath a little better up top. So now we are looking at a 222/226 cam with 5 degrees of OL. I would then probably change it to a 111+3 to bring OL down to 3, but that is my personal taste. I'm not a big fan of lope, especially after dynosiming some cams and finding that OL isn't always that beneficial to a LS motor....I have a theory as to why...but that is another topic.

Hammer

 

Great info, that will give me a lot to think about!

 

Lift will have little effect on idle. Overlap is your biggest effect on idle which is dictated purely by duration and LSA.

Adding Lift for a given duration typically allows the Volumetric efficiency of a larger cam but maintains the same drivability of the smaller duration number. The downfall is that increasing the lift for the same duration increases ramp rate which dictates that you must have a good valvetrain to handle it.

An example would be the common XE-R 224-228 114LSA cam.

I can actually take a LSK 223/227 114LSA and make a little more power and torque with the LSK and yet actually have better idle charcteristics with it too since it's real world duration numbers are a little smaller than the XER and yields about 1 less degree of OL. I like to say the LSK's make similar power to the next size up XER but idles close to, if not a hair better than, what the almost equivalent XER duration cam does.

But as mentioned, the downfall is the need of a strong valvetrain...in thsi case, a spring that has to handle close to .050" more lift.

Hammer

 

Will any of these cams pass a smog test in CA?

 

Look at the cam in my list that has negative 6 degrees of overlap...that should be able to pass.

Hammer

 

Hammer,

What's your overall oppinion on these 2 cams? I know they are"big" compared to what you've recommended, but the number's that they've put up lately have been very impressive.

The first is the Vengeance Vindicator cam that several have posted results on lately. I haven't seen the exact specs on it, but this is what they've posted, perhaps you can guesstimate on the rest? The MS4 looks to be similar, but is on LSK lobes, hence the 1* less duration yet still comparable.
240/244 .6xx/.6xx 113ish

The other is the FTI Street Sweeper cam - 236*-240*-111*-.630"-.610"

The TQ on the Vindicator cam seems to be exceptionally strong for a cam that size.

 

I can only guess on the Vindicator, as I only know what i read about it here and LS1 tech...

One of my guesses is that they had Comp grind it for them like most other tuners do. I know there are other cam companies out there, but I'm just playing the odds on this guess. And with the specs they gave, the only lobe that is on Piano prodigy's lobe source list that has a 240 and 244 are the LSK lobes. So I will take a WAG and say it's a 240/244 .649/.653 on whatever LSA and advance they choose. I would assume a minimum of 114LSA and at least 4 degrees advanced to give it some chance at streetability. Even then, the VE's don't look pretty to me as far as streetability. DCR doesn't look too hot either. I personally wouldn't spec it based on what little I know of it even though it can give big numbers.

MS3's, MS4's, T-rex's and other "Big cams" all seem to compare some what close in cam only dyno numbers...I think what people need to focus more on with Vengeance Racing's latest results is not so much the cam but the total package. There is probably a lot of special attention to detail in that build to make it perform the way it did. We are not talking a shade tree build where they are bolting on box stock parts...we are talking optimizing those parts after you take them out of the box such as milling the heads to "spec", porting the FAST 90, and other stuff. Let me just say, I'm impressed with the numbers...who wouldn't be? But at the same time, don't be fooled into thinking this thing is gonna drive any where near stock...I bet it's gonna be a handful when it comes on the cam. Look at the power curve where it looks like a light switch was hit and it does a steep upward climb...that will probably be some serious pucker for the driver.

I know the Streetsweeper done good for "miami's" build also...again, there was alot of attention to detail there too.

I'm not gonna lie, big cams make big numbers...I just don't find too many of those cars to be very streetable unless you are in the right situation. You will lose races at the stop lights unless you have traction...you will lose races at low speeds unless you have traction...if you do have traction and are too low in the rpms, you will get stepped out on. Where they shine is high rpm, ***** to the wall, running in the upper gears where torque multiplication isn't reaching out and biting you. They do impress all the kids at the local hangout too.

If you want me to pick what i'd choose of those cams, whichever is smaller is what I'd get. I'd only focus on big if I had cubes that need to breathe, or i'm building a racer. I personally don't see a whole lot of need for anything over 232 intake duration on the street. But as I've mentioned before, that is just my opinion.

Hammer

 

Thanks for your thoughts on those cams Hammer. I wish I knew a quarter of what you know regarding cams. I know the drivability has to be suffering, but the guys with these cams say it's not that bad.

Realisticly, I probably won't do a cam until next fall. I'm really interested to see how one of your 219/226 lsk lobed cams perform.

Again, thanks for the thoughts and the time you've put into them and for sharing with all of us!

 

What is the difference in quality/performance between the single and double springs? I went to A&A Corvette yesterday in Oxnard CA and Andy there said he only sells cam packages with double springs for $400.

 

Baaahhhh... I just read a lot of stuff... Anyway you are close enough so I'd say give Ron at Vengenance Racing in Atlanta a call and see what he'll do for ya. They've been getting a lot of great numbers out of their custom cams. If nothing else go into the 230's at least, i'm still kicking myself for my 224/228...

 

 

What makes you unhappy with your 224/228?

 

Next cam swap I'm installing a 2 piece timing cover.
http://www.nastyperformance.com/2PeiceTimingCover.html
No messin with that steering rack or balancer.