Wow- Why does Consumer Reports Rate the C5 Poorly?
10-01-2007, 09:50 PM
#21
Melting Slicks
CR reports black ball the C5 for 04'?
We'll lets look at it from a comsumers point. Have a 04 Tahoe, in the shop 6 times plus a new battery sunday. 02 BMW 745i and wifes BMW 03' 325ci live in the BMW shop. Isusu Trooper 94' 105K miles brakes, starters, batteries about it. I won't even get into the S320 MBZ I had. My 04' Corvette convertable 30K on it and never been in the shop! but my cigarette lighter stop working a few months ago, guess I better take it to the stealership....
We'll lets look at it from a comsumers point. Have a 04 Tahoe, in the shop 6 times plus a new battery sunday. 02 BMW 745i and wifes BMW 03' 325ci live in the BMW shop. Isusu Trooper 94' 105K miles brakes, starters, batteries about it. I won't even get into the S320 MBZ I had. My 04' Corvette convertable 30K on it and never been in the shop! but my cigarette lighter stop working a few months ago, guess I better take it to the stealership....
My EX 325Ci was the worst car I have ever owned in both performance and reliability yet CR gave it above average ratings 
10-01-2007, 09:53 PM
#22
Lepus-temperamentalus
Because CR is basically right, that's why.
And I'm not saying that to put down Corvettes or because mine has had any problems. I'm saying it because you have to understand what's being said here.
If you compare the ride, the assembly quality, the reliability, the materials used with, for example, a Toyota Camry, then the Camry wins, hands down, every time. CR doesn't measure "fun" or looks or prestige or any of the intangibles that come from owning a Corvette. To them, it's just another car. If that's the way you look at a Corvette, then you should pay attention to CR.
On the other hand, if you look at value, performance per dollar (including repair costs and reliability compared with other sports cars), then you have another ball game entirely. Go check out what it costs to do a tuneup on a 911, then find out what it costs to do one on a C5.
It's all in what you're looking for.
And I'm not saying that to put down Corvettes or because mine has had any problems. I'm saying it because you have to understand what's being said here.
If you compare the ride, the assembly quality, the reliability, the materials used with, for example, a Toyota Camry, then the Camry wins, hands down, every time. CR doesn't measure "fun" or looks or prestige or any of the intangibles that come from owning a Corvette. To them, it's just another car. If that's the way you look at a Corvette, then you should pay attention to CR.
On the other hand, if you look at value, performance per dollar (including repair costs and reliability compared with other sports cars), then you have another ball game entirely. Go check out what it costs to do a tuneup on a 911, then find out what it costs to do one on a C5.
It's all in what you're looking for.
10-01-2007, 10:02 PM
#23
Lepus-temperamentalus
Because CR is basically right, that's why.
And I'm not saying that to put down Corvettes or because mine has had any problems. I'm saying it because you have to understand what's being said here.
If you compare the ride, the assembly quality, the reliability, the materials used with, for example, a Toyota Camry, then the Camry wins, hands down, every time. CR doesn't measure "fun" or looks or prestige or any of the intangibles that come from owning a Corvette. To them, it's just another car. If that's the way you look at a Corvette, then you should pay attention to CR.
On the other hand, if you look at value, performance per dollar (including repair costs and reliability compared with other sports cars), then you have another ball game entirely. Go check out what it costs to do a tuneup on a 911, then find out what it costs to do one on a C5.
It's all in what you're looking for.
And I'm not saying that to put down Corvettes or because mine has had any problems. I'm saying it because you have to understand what's being said here.
If you compare the ride, the assembly quality, the reliability, the materials used with, for example, a Toyota Camry, then the Camry wins, hands down, every time. CR doesn't measure "fun" or looks or prestige or any of the intangibles that come from owning a Corvette. To them, it's just another car. If that's the way you look at a Corvette, then you should pay attention to CR.
On the other hand, if you look at value, performance per dollar (including repair costs and reliability compared with other sports cars), then you have another ball game entirely. Go check out what it costs to do a tuneup on a 911, then find out what it costs to do one on a C5.
It's all in what you're looking for.
10-01-2007, 10:12 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Nov 2004
Location: Erie County, Pennsylvania
Posts: 771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I Totally Disagree With You....
Guess I will be the dissenter. I have a C5 which I haven't had long. So far no issues.
But a quick reading of the forum makes it plain, that compared to a Honda or Toyota it has issues, a good many of them. I don't know how CR does their reporting now days. But looks fairly likely C5's are not quite there with the better top quality Japanese brands.
Now on the other hand, none of those are a Corvette, not close, not kinda, just not even in the ball park. I don't think the C5 is so bad it isn't worth owning. But that so far is conjecture on my part.
I do know that if I have more than 3 repairs, it will be more trouble than a Honda, Acura and a Toyota truck have given me in the last 450,000 miles. Two of those three I am still driving. That isn't three repairs each, but three total for the three vehicles. Of course I hope I am very wrong, and drive the C5 a couple hundred thousand miles without issue.
But a quick reading of the forum makes it plain, that compared to a Honda or Toyota it has issues, a good many of them. I don't know how CR does their reporting now days. But looks fairly likely C5's are not quite there with the better top quality Japanese brands.
Now on the other hand, none of those are a Corvette, not close, not kinda, just not even in the ball park. I don't think the C5 is so bad it isn't worth owning. But that so far is conjecture on my part.
I do know that if I have more than 3 repairs, it will be more trouble than a Honda, Acura and a Toyota truck have given me in the last 450,000 miles. Two of those three I am still driving. That isn't three repairs each, but three total for the three vehicles. Of course I hope I am very wrong, and drive the C5 a couple hundred thousand miles without issue.
The Honda Civic I owned, like the two Toyotas, rusted terribly in the the rear fenders. This at less than 80,000 miles. The fuel mileage was more than 25% below it's EPA and Honda advertised rating. The gas tank had to be replaced at 92,000 and the interior seating AGAIN had springs popping out of it and the seating material worn right through. The Civic went through brake pads unbelievably fast....and other issues.
The bottom line today is that "buying American" has been propagandized by foreign companies as being anti-cool. That only cool and hip people drive Toyotas, Hondas, Acuras, etc.
If you believe that patriotism and nationalism isn't a factor in buying cars you'd be wrong. And today, patriotism and love of country is denigrated throughout our society. Consequently....buying domestic brands is shunned.
I wouldn't hit a dog in the *** with a Toyota, Honda, Acura, Subaru, or any other rice-burner or foreign vehicle. But, then again, it seems like Americans may possibly elect one of the most left-wing, socialist politicians in our country....Hitlery Clinton. Society has moved to the left....and being and buying American means little to today's American citizen.
There was a time when I believed Consumer Reports was unbiased in their product evaluations. Then after having personal experience with many of their rated products, I came to believe they were basically full of crap. American vehicles I owned had performed well for me and had been rated poorly by C/R. While, foreign products I had owned were rated well, yet were poor performers for me.
Consumer Reports and Madison Avenue advertising firms have done well in the last 30 years pushing and advocating foreign owned/produced products. Americans have bought into it....Good-Bye America.
DG
Last edited by Delta3-2; 10-03-2007 at 10:27 PM.
10-01-2007, 10:22 PM
#25
I had Toyota Pick-Ups, two of them....and they both had become rust-buckets with 3 years, the auto tranny truck I had developed transmission trouble within 12 months, and the interior seating surfaces were falling apart within 2 years.
The Honda Civic I owned, like the two Toyotas, rusted terribly in the the rear fenders. This at less than 80,000 miles. The fuel mileage was more than 25% below it's EPA and Honda advertised rating. The gas tank had to be replaced at 92,000 and the interior seating AGAIN had springs popping out of it and the seating material worn right through. The Civic went through brake pads unbelievably fast....and other issues.
The bottom line today is that "buying American" has been propagandized by foreign companies as being anti-cool. That only cool and hip people drive Toyotas, Hondas, Acuras, etc.
If you believe that patriotism and nationalism isn't a factor in buying cars you'd be wrong. And today, patriotism and love of country is denigrated throughout our society. Consequently....buying domestic brands is shunned.
I wouldn't hit a dog in the *** with a Toyota, Honda, Acura, Subaru, or any other rice-burner or foreign vehicle. But, then again, it seems like Americans may possibly elect one of the most left-wing, socialist politicians in our country....Hitlery Clinton. Society has moved to the left....and being and buying American means little to today's American citizen.
There was a time when I believed Consumer Reports was unbiased in their product evaluations. Then after having personal experience with many of their rated products, I came to believe they were basically full of crap. American vehicles I owned had performed well for me and had been rated poorly by C/R. While, foreign products I had owned were rated well, yet were poor performers for me.
Consumer Reports and Madison Avenue advertising firms have done well in the last 30 years pushing and advocating foreign owned/produced products. Americans have bought into it....Good-Bye America.
DG
The Honda Civic I owned, like the two Toyotas, rusted terribly in the the rear fenders. This at less than 80,000 miles. The fuel mileage was more than 25% below it's EPA and Honda advertised rating. The gas tank had to be replaced at 92,000 and the interior seating AGAIN had springs popping out of it and the seating material worn right through. The Civic went through brake pads unbelievably fast....and other issues.
The bottom line today is that "buying American" has been propagandized by foreign companies as being anti-cool. That only cool and hip people drive Toyotas, Hondas, Acuras, etc.
If you believe that patriotism and nationalism isn't a factor in buying cars you'd be wrong. And today, patriotism and love of country is denigrated throughout our society. Consequently....buying domestic brands is shunned.
I wouldn't hit a dog in the *** with a Toyota, Honda, Acura, Subaru, or any other rice-burner or foreign vehicle. But, then again, it seems like Americans may possibly elect one of the most left-wing, socialist politicians in our country....Hitlery Clinton. Society has moved to the left....and being and buying American means little to today's American citizen.
There was a time when I believed Consumer Reports was unbiased in their product evaluations. Then after having personal experience with many of their rated products, I came to believe they were basically full of crap. American vehicles I owned had performed well for me and had been rated poorly by C/R. While, foreign products I had owned were rated well, yet were poor performers for me.
Consumer Reports and Madison Avenue advertising firms have done well in the last 30 years pushing and advocating foreign owned/produced products. Americans have bought into it....Good-Bye America.
DG
10-01-2007, 10:25 PM
#26
Pro
Member Since: Jul 2006
Posts: 512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMO..
First...READ OTHER ARTICLES ABOUT THE C5 CORVETTE, NOT JUST Consumer Reports.
If you are thinking of buying a sports car. BUY A C5 !!
NO other performance car out there will come close to the reliability, value , economy and fun you will get PER $$ that the C5 will give you, PERIOD !!
I have been into cars all my life. I am not impressed by almost all other "specialty" cars out there. I work with people who spend BIG $$$$$$$$$$ on their cars ( M.D.s ) and most are NOT HAPPY with their cars !?!?!? I had a Porsche and I put a ZZ4 Small Block Chevy in it !
I wouldnt expect a pre-C5 Corvette to even come close to what a C5 will do or to do it as long.
The SBC Chevy platform held its place for along time but couldnt meet the emission and performance requirements both necessary to bring it into the future.
The LS1 changed all that.
Buy a well cared for C5 and you will most likely continue to drive that vehicle for many miles without a problem.
Then, cancel the subscription to Consumer Reports.
IMO
Mike
Portland Oregon
First...READ OTHER ARTICLES ABOUT THE C5 CORVETTE, NOT JUST Consumer Reports.
If you are thinking of buying a sports car. BUY A C5 !!
NO other performance car out there will come close to the reliability, value , economy and fun you will get PER $$ that the C5 will give you, PERIOD !!
I have been into cars all my life. I am not impressed by almost all other "specialty" cars out there. I work with people who spend BIG $$$$$$$$$$ on their cars ( M.D.s ) and most are NOT HAPPY with their cars !?!?!? I had a Porsche and I put a ZZ4 Small Block Chevy in it !
I wouldnt expect a pre-C5 Corvette to even come close to what a C5 will do or to do it as long.
The SBC Chevy platform held its place for along time but couldnt meet the emission and performance requirements both necessary to bring it into the future.
The LS1 changed all that.
Buy a well cared for C5 and you will most likely continue to drive that vehicle for many miles without a problem.
Then, cancel the subscription to Consumer Reports.
IMO
Mike
Portland Oregon
Last edited by mnfmkf; 10-01-2007 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Added info
10-01-2007, 10:49 PM
#27
Safety Car
I once read an article about corvette and consumer report. They rated the 83 corvette as a poor car overall, trouble is there was no 1983 corvette. Except for the one at the corvette museum. They also rated the 82 corvette manual trans car as "not very reliable". 82 corvettes only were available with an automatic.
10-01-2007, 10:54 PM
#28
Race Director
Do you want to take the rating of a sports car by a testing group that calculates the force required to close a door or open a trunk? They do all kinds of testing that is meaningless.
They try and approach a car like a scientific study, but there's so much more to a car that can't be quantified. In short, CR are moron's for testing cars. Now, I'd maybe take a look if I wanted to buy a new vacuum, but never a car.
Nuff said.
They try and approach a car like a scientific study, but there's so much more to a car that can't be quantified. In short, CR are moron's for testing cars. Now, I'd maybe take a look if I wanted to buy a new vacuum, but never a car.
Nuff said.
10-01-2007, 11:05 PM
#29
Race Director
First of all, Consumer Reports "reports" what is sent in by real people, like you and me. I am one of the people who do so. Let me tell you how "reliable" my car has been:
1) Pulsating brakes
2) Door lock module
3) Differential gasket leak
4) Column lock module - flat bed tow
5) Smog pump check valve (check engine light)
6) Creaky clutch pedal
What others right here on the forum have reported (in addition to my list):
7) Gas gauge malfunction
8) Sticking clutch
9) Electrical craziness caused by the door connectors
10) EBCM ($1200 at dealership)
11) Targa top crazing and film separation
Okay, I think you get the picture. So before you bash CR (especially those who have not had their C5 for more than a couple of years), read the posts in this forum. Believe me, I really enjoy my C5 and have had it for over 6 years. Before that, I owned a 68 for almost 22 years. I am a Corvette guy, but my wife's Lexus is now 2.5 years old and the worst thing that has happened to it was a slightly loose wheel cap.
Does this mean that no one should buy a Corvette? Of course not. Just don't kid yourself that they are more reliable than a Honda S2000 or a Mazda Miata.
1) Pulsating brakes
2) Door lock module
3) Differential gasket leak
4) Column lock module - flat bed tow
5) Smog pump check valve (check engine light)
6) Creaky clutch pedal
What others right here on the forum have reported (in addition to my list):
7) Gas gauge malfunction
8) Sticking clutch
9) Electrical craziness caused by the door connectors
10) EBCM ($1200 at dealership)
11) Targa top crazing and film separation
Okay, I think you get the picture. So before you bash CR (especially those who have not had their C5 for more than a couple of years), read the posts in this forum. Believe me, I really enjoy my C5 and have had it for over 6 years. Before that, I owned a 68 for almost 22 years. I am a Corvette guy, but my wife's Lexus is now 2.5 years old and the worst thing that has happened to it was a slightly loose wheel cap.
Does this mean that no one should buy a Corvette? Of course not. Just don't kid yourself that they are more reliable than a Honda S2000 or a Mazda Miata.
10-01-2007, 11:06 PM
#30
Racer
Member Since: Nov 2005
Location: Bonney Lake, Washington
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
The way I look at it is that people who are not fortunate to own a Corvette are natural born Corvette Haters. That jealousy runs really deep and they try to find fault that justify why they don't own a vette. The true Corvette enthusiest is true to their cars because there's simply nothing out there that can compare to the style, performance and it's ledgend.
Last edited by SJC5; 10-01-2007 at 11:14 PM.
10-01-2007, 11:16 PM
#31
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Feb 2007
Location: New fairfield Connecticut
Posts: 2,533
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Wow
For once I agree with every word Delta3-2 has said, great post.
We recently bought CR best buy Vacum cleaner, broke in two days. My wife returned it and bought the Dyson, worst rated, works great.
I have friends and neighbors that live by Consumer reports. I can't believe my wife subscibes to that rag of a magazine.
For once I agree with every word Delta3-2 has said, great post.
We recently bought CR best buy Vacum cleaner, broke in two days. My wife returned it and bought the Dyson, worst rated, works great.
I have friends and neighbors that live by Consumer reports. I can't believe my wife subscibes to that rag of a magazine.
10-01-2007, 11:16 PM
#32
Race Director
The way I look at it is that people who are not fortunate to own a Corvette are natural born Corvette Haters. That jealousy runs really deep and they try to find fault that justify why they don't own a vette. The true Corvette enthusiest is true to their cars because there's simply nothing out there that can compare to the style, performance and it's ledgend.
10-01-2007, 11:19 PM
#33
Race Director
Newsflash! CR is a NONPROFIT organization. They accept NO advertisement money, whatsoever.
10-01-2007, 11:45 PM
#34
CR members vote for the cars....so you have the same people voting for the same cars year in and year out. If you have Corvette quarterly members voting you might have a different outcome. Just in terms of American vs Imports, have a look at the newest dependability scores from JD Power. Personally think they are less biased than CR.
http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...spx?id=2007130
#1 Buick shared with Lexus
#2 Cadillac
#3 Mercury
#4 Honda
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...bility-ratings
No surprise at the bottom...VW...Kia...Suzuki
So for anyone who says they buy Toyota for reliability...try Buick
http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...spx?id=2007130
#1 Buick shared with Lexus
#2 Cadillac
#3 Mercury
#4 Honda
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...bility-ratings
No surprise at the bottom...VW...Kia...Suzuki
So for anyone who says they buy Toyota for reliability...try Buick
10-01-2007, 11:49 PM
#35
Perhaps CR doesn't consider recalls in their evaluations and comparisons of cars and trucks?
I've had my share of both American and Japanese cars dating back to the 70's. American cars have had their issues, but Japanese cars have not been squeaky clean either. I've had Toyota 18RC 2000cc engines on 2 different vehicles that were recalled and needed valve jobs while the engines were still fairly new because the valves would stick and clatter at freeway speeds. I've had Corolla's that couldn't seem to keep their intake and exhaust manifolds from coming loose. My wife has a Honda Accord EX. I've had to change the alternator, put in a new circuit board for the climate control and replace 2 motor mounts (and I'm pretty sure she isn't launching the car). The car has less than 60K miles on it. My Toyota truck needed to have the evaporator replaced when the air conditioner stopped working with only 62K miles on it. I think the quality of our American vehicles has improved due to foreign competition, but I also think the quality of imports has diminished for the same reasons. As foreign manufacturers increase volume and provide more powerful vehicles with more options, it appears their quality has suffered.
Anyone remember this article from Business Week late last year?
I've had my share of both American and Japanese cars dating back to the 70's. American cars have had their issues, but Japanese cars have not been squeaky clean either. I've had Toyota 18RC 2000cc engines on 2 different vehicles that were recalled and needed valve jobs while the engines were still fairly new because the valves would stick and clatter at freeway speeds. I've had Corolla's that couldn't seem to keep their intake and exhaust manifolds from coming loose. My wife has a Honda Accord EX. I've had to change the alternator, put in a new circuit board for the climate control and replace 2 motor mounts (and I'm pretty sure she isn't launching the car). The car has less than 60K miles on it. My Toyota truck needed to have the evaporator replaced when the air conditioner stopped working with only 62K miles on it. I think the quality of our American vehicles has improved due to foreign competition, but I also think the quality of imports has diminished for the same reasons. As foreign manufacturers increase volume and provide more powerful vehicles with more options, it appears their quality has suffered.
Anyone remember this article from Business Week late last year?
So much for Toyota's vaunted reputation for quality. On July 18, the Japanese auto giant announced a recall of 418,570 vehicles worldwide for faulty engine parts. This follows an even larger global recall of nearly one million cars and trucks at the end of May for faulty parts that could cause drivers to lose control of the steering wheel.
The current recall affects about 150,000 cars sold outside of Japan, mainly in the U.S. and Canada, though no accidents have been reported due to the faulty engine component that could lead to oil leakage. In the U.S. more than 34,000 cars were recalled, including 26,200 Echo and 8,500 Prius models. While Toyota (TM) is no stranger to recalls—in May 2005 it recalled more than 750,000 pickup trucks and every single 2006 Toyota model line from the Avalon to the Tundra has experienced some form of recall—this latest round may finally dent its Teflon image if steps aren't taken to improve quality.
The current recall affects about 150,000 cars sold outside of Japan, mainly in the U.S. and Canada, though no accidents have been reported due to the faulty engine component that could lead to oil leakage. In the U.S. more than 34,000 cars were recalled, including 26,200 Echo and 8,500 Prius models. While Toyota (TM) is no stranger to recalls—in May 2005 it recalled more than 750,000 pickup trucks and every single 2006 Toyota model line from the Avalon to the Tundra has experienced some form of recall—this latest round may finally dent its Teflon image if steps aren't taken to improve quality.
10-02-2007, 12:13 AM
#36
Racer
First of all, Consumer Reports "reports" what is sent in by real people, like you and me. I am one of the people who do so. Let me tell you how "reliable" my car has been:
1) Pulsating brakes
2) Door lock module
3) Differential gasket leak
4) Column lock module - flat bed tow
5) Smog pump check valve (check engine light)
6) Creaky clutch pedal
What others right here on the forum have reported (in addition to my list):
7) Gas gauge malfunction
8) Sticking clutch
9) Electrical craziness caused by the door connectors
10) EBCM ($1200 at dealership)
11) Targa top crazing and film separation
Okay, I think you get the picture. So before you bash CR (especially those who have not had their C5 for more than a couple of years), read the posts in this forum. Believe me, I really enjoy my C5 and have had it for over 6 years. Before that, I owned a 68 for almost 22 years. I am a Corvette guy, but my wife's Lexus is now 2.5 years old and the worst thing that has happened to it was a slightly loose wheel cap.
Does this mean that no one should buy a Corvette? Of course not. Just don't kid yourself that they are more reliable than a Honda S2000 or a Mazda Miata.
1) Pulsating brakes
2) Door lock module
3) Differential gasket leak
4) Column lock module - flat bed tow
5) Smog pump check valve (check engine light)
6) Creaky clutch pedal
What others right here on the forum have reported (in addition to my list):
7) Gas gauge malfunction
8) Sticking clutch
9) Electrical craziness caused by the door connectors
10) EBCM ($1200 at dealership)
11) Targa top crazing and film separation
Okay, I think you get the picture. So before you bash CR (especially those who have not had their C5 for more than a couple of years), read the posts in this forum. Believe me, I really enjoy my C5 and have had it for over 6 years. Before that, I owned a 68 for almost 22 years. I am a Corvette guy, but my wife's Lexus is now 2.5 years old and the worst thing that has happened to it was a slightly loose wheel cap.
Does this mean that no one should buy a Corvette? Of course not. Just don't kid yourself that they are more reliable than a Honda S2000 or a Mazda Miata.
I have a 2002 Z06 that is a great car! I added a Maggie and made it better. The only costs have been maintenance and mods. I also have an 89 Corvette that has been mostly trouble free (get in turn the key and go). All sports type cars get bad write ups compared to your ricers. They cost more. I will never own a ricer
. My daily driver is a V12 CL600 Mercedes. German and American for me. The moral is if you like it -- buy it. Who cares how they rank it or what other people say!
10-02-2007, 12:14 AM
#37
Burning Brakes
10-02-2007, 12:24 AM
#38
Le Mans Master
I ordered/bought my C5 new and although the Forum hype has had me install a CLB and correct the two stage, double backflip center console hinge I have to admit my car has performed very well with just a fuel injector failure. But here's my feeling. How when buying a USED car of any brand, let alone a PERFORMANCE car not knowing who did what with the car could anyone grade such a line of cars with any accuracy? Let's face it folks when you buy a used car of any kind you buy a pig in a poke and hope for the best.
10-02-2007, 12:35 AM
#39
Race Director
CR members vote for the cars....so you have the same people voting for the same cars year in and year out. If you have Corvette quarterly members voting you might have a different outcome. Just in terms of American vs Imports, have a look at the newest dependability scores from JD Power. Personally think they are less biased than CR.
JD Powers, on the other hand, is an initial quality survey. It has nothing to do with long-term quality. If you buy a new car every year, use the JD Powers ratings. If you keep your car for 5 years, use CR's ratings or don't complain when your oil sending unit fails.
10-02-2007, 12:38 AM
#40
Race Director
That's easy: CR requires that you are the original owner of the car on which you are reporting. Of course, people can lie, but quite frankly, people who subscribe to CR are not hoodlums and low-lifes who hate Corvettes, believe me (cause I'm a CR subscriber!).