Chuck, I was driveing my 66 into NYC on the west side highway every day with 3-3200 pound clutch in rush hour. :crazy: But my leg was 36 years younger :yesnod: I am a beliver in anything is possible. Wish I still had some of my past rides in addition to the Z06. An L88 would be even better! You have very cool car!! Ric

 

Ric,

It's because I am now in the city that I am considering the roller cam. Maybe even a McCleod dual disc clutch too. Have I gone over the top if I put in Power steering too? Maybe in another 20 years I'll even consider puting in an automatic, but I sure hope it doesn't come to that. The L88 is a muscle car in more ways than one!

I never would have built the L88 if I lived in the city at the time. But when I do find myself on an open road, I'm 17 again! (which is when I bought it)

Chuck

 

Chuck, At this point in life, doing what I want, and others be dxxxx is my take on what I do with my toy's. Keeping it fun is what it's about for me. Ric

 

Sorry, I'm having a real tough time believing that switching from the stock 2" exhaust and cast iron manifolds to an open header system would add 200hp. The stock exhaust system was restrictive for sure, but not THAT restrictive. I just can't see switching to headers and a free flowing 2.5" exhaust would even add more than 75hp.

I don't know if this was directed at my post or not, but if it was, I just want to point out that I don't know yet what the HP difference is between my big block and the Z06. I don't have an L88 setup, but I have a larger engine. It probably doesn't make as much hp as an L-88 overall though due to the lower compression (10.5) and not quite as wild of a cam. I'm estimating 375-400 rwhp, and about 400lbs. of rw torque.

Also, the big block C3s are heavier by about 150-200lbs. to the Z06. They are NOT the same weight. We won't even get into weight distribution. BTW, I'm running 3.70 gears, so in my case, not the same gear ratio either. Besides, I don't think the Muncie M21 has the same gear ratios as the T56 in 1-4.

Based on your dynos of your L88, I agree. Even with a heavier weight, the L88 has a better power to weight ratio than the Z06.

:yesnod:

 

stingray454,

The 200+ hp lost was given in a magazine article some years back regarding to one of the ZL1 camaros. They were quoting hp figures below 300. The camaro manifolds are less efficient than the Vettes, so I still think the 200 would be pretty close. I think BAD-L88 lost about 80 hp on his dyno test using just the iron manifold and a short length of 2.5" pipe. 2" pipe is about 40% more restrictive than 2.5". Add 10-12 feet of such pipe and then through restrictive stock mufflers and I think the loss is realistic. The L88 cam has so much duration that backpressure has a far greater percenatge effect on power than say a 390 horse cam. This is why the L88 puts out less power than the 435 engines even though it had a better manifold, compression, heads, and a wild cam. One step forward, two steps backward.

The weight of the L88 really is pretty close to the Z. Headers way much less than iron manifolds, heavy exhaust pipe, and mufflers. Aluminum heads, aluminum radiator, no a/c, no power steering. If I am over 3200 pounds, it's not by much. The Z is supposed to weigh 3180. The weight distribution is almost exactly 50/50 for the L88, actually slightly better than the Z. Road and Track tested a L89 (aluminum heads) 435 car with power steering, windows. It weighed 3260 with 50/50 distribution. Without heavy exhaust system and accessories, I think I saved close to 60 pounds. The Z is spec'd to have a f/r distribution of 54/46.

As far as how much difference between your BB and the Z can actually be felt, without knowing your BB I can't even make a guess. To put the L88 and your engine into perspective, compare your engine to a 71 LS6. The L88 is much more than that. The point I attempted to make is that if an owner/driver such as myself has two cars with close to 100hp difference between them, that owner/driver had better be able to tell the difference or he wouldn't have a clue as to what hp is. When the L88 is running properly there is absolutely no doubt in my mind as to which is the bigger hammer. A driver who can't tell the difference between a Monte Carlo SS and a C5 should be discredited. Likewise, I should be discredited if I can't tell the large difference in power between the L88 and the Z.

Chuck

:cheers:

 

Um, I have both Z06 and L88, and although I usually hang out in the C1/C2 forum, I would like to weigh in on this issue.

First, I would like to know why every thing has to hinge on quarter mile racing? These cars, although capable of respectable quarter mile times, are NOT drag racers. They are roadracers, so test them on the track.

The L88 is NOT directly comparable to the modern Z06, which is a street car, and has air conditioning, radio, and other amenities.

The L88 is directly comparable to the modern C5R! That is, it is designed, constructed, and sold as a factory RACE CAR, for competition in internationally sanctioned racing. More important, it is designed to WIN in internationally sanctioned racing, against its peer group.......which, in the case of the C5R includes the new Saleen, and the Viper GTR.

I simply don't believe anybody, no matter how naive, expects a Z06 to compete with the C5R and its peer group.

The ORIGINAL Z06, and the L88 did exactly that. No, the Z06 was not a match for the Cobra in a sprint race, but the L88, in the hands of the Owens Corning Fiberglass team was (Ask Redvetteracer, who owns and races one of their cars).

My 69 L88 was competitive, which I will define as "top ten" in IMSA and SCCA races when it was new. I had only headers, a roll bar and racing tires (roadracing slicks hadn't been invented yet).
How competitive? I was able to win an IMSA Camel GT race in 1971.

Ask David Farmer how credible that would be in a stock Z06 today.

 

63Corvette,

Thanks for weighing in, I can't think of many more credible guys to listen to than yourself. I believe the reason for this thread concentrating on 1/4 times is the disbelief among new Vette owners regarding the power of the L88's. 1/4 mile times were used as evidence of actual power.

You are very correct stating the L88 is a road racing car much more than a drag car. I've never had it on any track, but built it with the primary hope of being able to play with it at Laguna Seca or Sears Point on club days. Getting qualified with some good driving courses to truly begin to drive to the car’s potential is my goal.

What I have always enjoyed about the L88 was how close it was to street car, yet how competitive it was at some of the world's most famous tracks. That the car proved its ability to attain the unheard of top speed of 212mph at LeMans with the Heinz car. This was the realm of super exotic machinery and it was a vicarious thrill to say that I owned a copy.

Yes I love the effortless power of the mew ZO6, how well it handles and coddles me at the same time. But the L88 truly immerses me in its unbridled eagerness to race. You can think of nothing else while driving it, there are no other distractions. And perform it does very well.

As I stated earlier, I would love to see some unsuspecting new ZO6 owner served up as humble pie at the hands of someone like yourself in an L88 at the track. It continues to amaze me how little regard many new performance car owners have for some very fast cars from an earlier generation. The naiveté that modern equipment will always trump talent.

Chuck

 

Sorry, but that statement makes no sense. Racing has changed dramatically in the last 30 years. Back then, IMSA and NASCAR were designed as racing series that would utilize basically production vehicles with modifications for racing use. Today, they are not. In fact, in many of todays racing series that originated as "stock" car series, it's not unusual to see what would be front drive platform bodies on full race rear drive, purpose built chassis.

There have been WAY too many changes over the years in safety, emission, and CAFE regulations to even try to compare a Z06 to an L88. Today, it is almost impossible for a manufacturer to build a car in the vain of the L88 and sell it for street use.

Frankly, I think it's more a testament to todays cars that they can compete with an L88 while still meeting all the government regulations, get 30 mpg on the highway, and still offer the amenities that we have become acustomed to - and at a price that many people can afford. It seems there are no losers here.

 

jschindler,

Maybe I'm wrong, but I understood the comparrisons attempted between the two were only focussed on their performance. How they get there through design and engineering, old or new really doesn't matter. Creature comforts, ease of driving, nor air bags, etc. were of concern. The original post simply inquired as to the level of performance between old BB Vettes and the new ones like the ZO6.

As I said earlier, I really think it would be alot of fun to meet at a good track, like Thunderhill out here, and play. Your C5 against my L88. I think you would be very surprised to see what carburated L88 engine can do. I also think that if we are of similar driving talent, you would be amazed that handling is not so far below the Z either. Driver talent will make far more difference. This would be a valid comjparrison, and one heck of a great time.

Chuck

 

If I could I would. Yes it would be good fun. :cheers:

 

In my youth I had a 327 in a '56 chevy that could routinely blow the doors off STOCK 396's. In order to do that I had to run 12.5/1 compression, more cam than was recommended for the street and a multitude of other parts. I suspect the power was similar to the LS6 but with a much narrower power band. The little motor had NOTHING below 3500 RPM. I routinely shifted at 8+ grand. I never kept the thing together for more than a month at a time. Clutches and tranny's routinely failed.

HOWEVER, L88's were in a totally different league. These engines in street Chevelle's were pulling the wheels well off the ground with slicks. The torque and power was far beyond anything I could remotely pull with a small block.

I think of the power of the Z06 more like a refined version of my old small block. Unless you've experienced the torque that an L88 produces, there's no describing it. They are different animals.

 

I happened upon a copy of Vette Magazine from Sept. 2000 in which they do a series called The Illustrated Corvette. The Vette shown was a 1969 Baldwin Motion Phase III 427. These were Vettes that could be ordered new through Baldwin Chevrolet and then modified by Motion Performance with the best go fast parts of that era. These cars start with a L71 427/435 and build up from there. The note worthy quote was “Every Phase II car was guaranteed to run 12.50 et @ 120 mph with a Motion Performance approved driver at a NHRA or AHRA track.” I believe this Vette was pretty much top of the heap as far as real, streetable Vettes from those years. (From Black Book) the L88 was available in Corvette from 67 through 69 with a total production of only 216. The L71 (427/435) was available in the same years and production was 9374. I have never seen any documentation that supports the idea that Chevy considered the L88 a street engine. Any realistic comparison between Vettes then and now would have to be limited to production street versions sold to the public. The L71 is the top 427 in that category and not the L88.

 

Quote:__________________________________ ____________________

The L71 is the top 427 in that category and not the L88.
________________________________________ ____________________

Terry, I guess if you say so, that's the way it is.

Chuck

 

A friend of mine had a 69 427/400 vette. He just sold it about a month ago. He had owned this car for the past 14 years. The tri-power was removed by the previous owner. He only drove it a few hundred miles each year. You can see the results of our little run:
http://www.picturetrail.com/gmblack3/527200

 

gmblack3,

I remember seeing that post when you first made it. Great pictures and story. I can't think of a better setting to safely and discreetly have an impromptu race. Even if it had been a 435hp car, the results would have been nearly the same. If the 435hp had 4.11 gears, it may have been closer, but I still think you would have taken him.

 

His traction was very poor off of the line, those pics where from the 2nd run where I held till I thought he got going a little. I wish the Z06 had the sweet sound that the BB makes. :D

 

I wish I had an L88 Vette in my garage. Very sweet ride. I can't imagine anyone bashing an L88. As the years tick by, fewer and fewer Vette owners will have even experienced the power and torque of a rat and will not have the benefit of understanding and appreciating the differences that are so eloquently spoken of in this thread