My father has owned over 40 corvettes since I was a kid. The first vette he purchased was a 63 split window coupe Fuel injection way back in 1966. He has owned big blocks and many small blocks and he claims the Z06 the fastest production corvette. I'm in the process of restoring a 68 427 coupe, previously I have owned five other vettes. So, we both know a little about vettes. I'm kinda partial to these old 427 big blocks. I'm under the impression with equal tires, the 427 would cut the Z06 through the 1/4 mile. Years ago I read a story on a factory 1969 ZL-1 that ran the quarter mile in 10 seconds. A Z06 will not come close to 10 seconds in the quarter mile. Also, prior to all this performance sheets on the Z06. Motor trend had a factory 66 427/425hp run the 1/4 mile @ 12.6. The Z06 suppose to have run the quarter in 12.6 seconds. The 1966 vette did the same time with thin two-ply tires.... Wow!
The same magazines had the powerful L-88 runing the quarter mile in the low 13 seconds however, mechanics tells us if they would have uncap the headers these cars would have run two seconds quicker through the quarter. It seems like to me, GM is needing to beef the engine a little more before these Z06 's catch the early brothers in the quarter mile. :)

68 big block coupe

 

Check out the old vs. new muscle thread in the kill section. Here is my opinion, out of the showroom the ZO6 is the quickest Vette yet but with headers and slicks on both a ZO6 and hipo 427 it would be a good race. Now put slicks and headers on an L88 vs. ZO6 and the L88 wins. I also have to say that the Chevy engineers are doing a great job in producing a world class Corvette at a fairly affordable price :cheers:

 

You can talk 1/4 mile all you want but in reality an L88 is not a streetable car ( no fan shroud). However the 1/4 mile doesn't end on the street. Lets have a race from 0 to 170 and see who wins. Heck I will even leave my air on for you. :D Have fun and be careful.

 

Ok, let's go. :)

The 427BB is just more fun and way cooler. The new vettes are better in alot of respects, but you can't match the coolness of a big block vintage vette...just like a C5 can't come close to the attention you get driving around in a Viper.... and GM never will again.

Doesn't matter if the Z06 goes faster or handles better; you have a big block vette. Besides, if you modify a big block, I don't think you'll have any problems at all going faster than a Z06 or a ZR1 - outside of running into a wind wall <g>.

My "dream" vette right now would be a C3 with C5 technology/comfort underneath and a big block L-88 clone <g>... or a NASCAR engine from MuscleMotorsports pumping out 700HP at 7000RPM ... I drool over either one <g>

sirhC


[Modified by ZROne, 5:09 PM 5/31/2002]

 

I've got both a ZO6 and a factory spec L88 clone. The L88 absolutely has more power. I just dyno'd both last weekend. The Z pulled 353, the L88 ran out of breath above 5000rpm but still pulled 411. Once this new engine is sorted out and corrected, I expect about 50 horsepower more.

Without question the Z is much more streetable and bettered engineered of the two. But shouldn't that be expected with more than 30 years between them?! A factory L88/ZL1 with a 4 speed can either be faster or quicker than a Z, depending on the gearing, but not both. I have a ROD 6 speed so I have the best of both worlds. The 1st 5 gears of my L88 are actually quite similar to the Z's ratios.

The L88 is drivable around town. I have amazed many folks, but docile is not a word I would use. Yet if you can keep it above 35 mph, it really is pretty easy to drive around. Even in 90+ degree weather my Spal electric fans keep the water temp under 205 degrees without any shrouding or mechanical fan in stop and go rush hour traffic on city streets. With a 3200# pressure plate, loud pipes idling at 1500 rpm, manual steering, no a/c, this is not fun, but it will do it without worrying about over heating.

I will probably be changing the cam for a solid roller to keep the high rpm personality that it should have (but is momentarily lost until I complete my diagnosis) and greatly improve its street manners. I may add power steering too. No, it wouldn't be 100% stock, and quite frankly I don't care. This forum is also full of Z owners boasting about all the changes made to their cars. But with a few relatively simple changes such as cam, wheels, tires, and steering, I can have a car that truly rips the asphalt and is still very streetable.

The L88 is much more like a Viper in its character, the Z is much more Ferrari like, though at a greatly reduced price. I love them both and consider myself very blessed to have each of them.

Chuck

 

Chuck, I agree on the blessed part... Good Lord, 2 of the coolest fastest Vettes EVER produced.

Now, as delivered from the factory, the Z06 is quicker, faster, quieter, more driveable, better economy, EVERYTHING except personality. Yes, the Z has great personality but a big block is just cool...

Now, when it comes to modifying... the 427 has more beef to push around. There are plenty of very good BB heads and cam choices are endless. But, it is still hard to fault the factory delivered power AND refinement AND fuel economy AND emissions levels, etc. of the Z, the as delivered FASTEST QUICKEST Vette Ever

:cheers:


[Modified by Jbrady, 5:43 AM 6/1/2002]

 

Yes, the "as from the factory" part is kinda twisted when comparing the L88 and the ZO6. The L88/ZL1 would never have even been offered if they didn't expect them to be immediately fitted with Kustom Equipment headers (with GM part #) or aftermarket headers from someone else. Remember, there were virtually no "no tampering" laws back then. You were free to work on your own car just about anyway you wanted. Imagine that! Can you believe that the '69 L88 came with 2" exhaust? That's like telling a champion runner that he can only exhale through his nose during a race!

If the ZO6 were only offered with skinny tires and a single exhaust with the thought that we would choose our own, would us ZO6 owners acknowledge that a Camaro is a faster car? I don't think so! How many Z's do you think would remain in the original configuration more than one week? Even today almost no one hesitates to modify their new car if they want to. In 1969 it wouldn't even have crossed my mind, nor anyone elses for that matter!

Chuck

P.s. I don't know about the ZO6 being quieter. After driving the L88, I can't hear anything anyway
:lol:

 

First of all, there were only two ZL1's built, so let's not count them. Second of all, for all you guys that think that slicks are the answer to the old big blocks, look at the trap speeds for them. Even with slicks, the trap speeds on the best of the truly mass produced stock big blocks was around 110. The Z06 will easily turn 116 - 117 in the quarter. Go put slicks on a Z06 and the quarter easily drops into the 11's.

I like the old big blocks too, but I'll bet money that if you are talking totally stock - but go ahead and allow slicks on both cars, the Z06 will walk any of them. Heck, in a comparison a couple of years ago, a BMW 540 sedan outran a stock 435 horse big block in the quarter mile - both et and mph.

 

jschindler,

With all do respects, You don't have your facts right. I've got both and I know better. The L88 doesn't need slicks to turn 1/4 mile times in the 11's.

There is nothing mystical about making 500+ horse power with a big block. You callously toss out the ZL1's claiming only two, yet don't recognize the numerous Camaros that were delivered with them. For straight line, a Camaro can be just as quick as a Vette for a whole lot less money which is why they were so popular with the drag guys. And they had no problems turning 10's like the Corvette ZL1 magazine test back did back then either with slicks and headers being the only modifications. The weight of my 69 is very similar to the Z. With gearing equal to a 4.11 rear end and M22 4 speed, probably even with a set of 3.70 gears, the L88 would not have any trouble beating the Z as long as it was using reasonably wide modern high performance street tires.

You also may not know that tire width has nothing to do with amount of rubber on the pavement. Calculating the area of rubber touching the ground at any one time is a matter of simply dividing the weight of the car by its tire pressure, period. The short but wide contact patch is better for cornering, a longer but skinny contact patch is better for straight line performance. It is the new rubber compounds that make such a difference in traction.

The C3 Vettes hook up even better than the C5's because they squat down under hard acceleration. The anti-squat geometry designed into the C4's and C5's which is better for road racing just doesn't bite as well off the line.

The L88 may be simple and somewhat crude when compared to the ZO6, but then so is an A/C Cobra. The old cars don't have a chassis that is as rigid, brakes that are quite as good, nor 5 and 6 link suspensions; but, with sticky street tires and most importantly good driver talent they can still serve up humble pie to many ZO6 owners.

They are both great cars!

Chuck

 

I should add that the Z is without question the better all around car. While the approximately 100 rear wheel horsepower has its joys, it's not everything.

The Z is faster and quicker than a C3 435 car. A c2 or C3 435 car puts out more horsepower than an L88 with factory exhaust too for that matter. But again, they would never have offered the L88/ZL1 if there wasn't the expectation of installing headers, either factory or aftermarket. They didn't just take a shot in the dark with the cam specs and let the customers do their testing for them.

I just think it is a bit disingenuous to hear folks dissing the L88'sfor not being in as delivered condition when at the same time they have numerous mods to their own cars. Me think tis a little hypocritical!

Chuck

 

Ok here's some of my impresions; I was raceing the 1/4mi in 66 with a 450 BB that's what it said, later rateing changed to 425, with 4.11 gears, it's 36 years ago but here is what thay were like with clutch, open O/K headers, and MH tires I ran a best of 11.78 @118 in 66. I also had 435 67, and 435 L89 in 68, all of them slower than the 66. All grate cars but not the car the Z06 is. IMHO Ric

 

I have a modified big block car and an '02 Z06. While my big block is not an L-88 or an L-88 clone, its power levels probably aren't too far off. I'll be dyno'ing it in the next few weeks to find out once and for all.

SOTP, its tough to tell which one would be faster in the quarter. I'm leaning towards the Z being slightly faster, but I could be wrong. The cars FEEL very different when accelerating. The big block is more visceral and in your face with gobs of torque on tap at any RPM. Nail the gas at any RPM and it instantly and violently shoves you back in your seat and keeps you there until you shift. The Z is different - below 3k RPMs it just doesn't pull nearly as hard as the big block does. But what it lacks in lower RPM grunt it more than makes up for above 4k. Between 4k and redline in the Z feels like it pulls harder than the big block. And of course shifting at redline, the tranny keeps the motor in its sweet spot at all times during the 1/4, which is why I think the Z is a bit faster.

Again, this is all SOTP. I may be off base, but this is the way it feels to me.

 

What facts did I mis-state? I stand behind what I said, and I will pull out my car magazines from the 60's to back up my statements. I never said they didn't make over 500 horsepower - did I? I never said anything about tire width, did I? I never said anything about Camaros. Come on now, how many ZL1 Camaros were built as production cars anyway? And what did they run in the quarter?

What I said is that I believe that both cars running slicks, I think the Z06 will outrun the 427's. And while I know that the L88 was pretty bad A**, I still put my money on the Z06. That has nothing to do with having "my facts" right, it has to do with my opinion.

I respect that you have both, and know your stuff, but I also am refering to an original, as delivered car, with only slicks as a "mod". Many of the L88's built to original specs have significant variations. I'm also not talking open headers on the old big blocks.

I may be wrong, but I am stating an opinion that I would bet money on, and I am refering to contemporary road test of the time.

I am looking right now at a road test of a 1969 L88 that ran the quarter in 14.1 at 106.89. In a Road Test of five 427's, in the same magazine, the fastest ran 13.94 at 105.6. That was an L71 with 4:11 gears and a four speed. Admittedly, the L88 was an automatic (good for drag racing) but with 3:36 gears. Lower gears would make it quicker, but I don't think enough to get it to Z06 territory. By the way, another manazine of the same year has a 435 with four speed and 4:11 gears at 14.3 and 98 mph.

I know there are faster times out there. But they are usually not stock, and have drag tires of some sort, and open headers. Heck, even your car is a long way from stock with different transmission, radiator, and by your comments, I'm guessing headers and exhaust system.

Finally, you state that an L88 does not need slicks to run low 11's. I'm curious, what does it need, and what can you back it up with? No flames intended. I'd love to have your L88. I'm just going by data that is consistent over the years - published road tests in magazines that are still in business.

Again, no flames intended. Please understand that I'm the kind of person that likes a little good natured exchange. Dinner's on me if you are ever in Houston. :cheers:


[Modified by jschindler, 3:05 PM 6/1/2002]

 

I have to agree from first hand experience the Z06 is .5 sec faster in the quarter as delivered in the hands of good drivers. Parts in the BB cars diden't last very long against power shifts, and the creature comforts are not inclueded,I passed on a L88 in 68 because of it. 60's cars were special and still are but twist it as you will, they should not be compared to stock 01-02 Z06's as delivered, a differant time and car.IMHO Ric

 

I just dyno'd mine last week. The L88, while not yet dialed in as it ran out of breath at 5000 (for reasons explained on another post and now have mostly corrected) still put out much more power at the wheels than the ZO6 on the same day on the same dyno. The overall gear ratios for the first 4 gears between the two are almost identical. And yet you still believe the Z is faster through the 1/4 mile?

The 1/4 mile test, the only 1/4 mile test of a L88 car done at the time was with a Turbo 400 and 3.36 gears. The car used 2" exhaust pipes as all 69's did bolted up to cast iron exhaust. This exhaust system takes away at least 200 horse power when used with the L88 cam. As I said above, the 435hp car would have made more power than the L88 with this exhaust. The fancy finned side exhaust option offered only in 69 was not much better, perhaps 5-10 horsepower at the wheels. Yet if you look at the acceleration graph in that article, it continues to go straight up with very little curving on up to 150 mph. Not until the car hit about 40 mph was the engine hitting its sweet spot.

If you insist that the L88 must have the iron manifold and 2" pipes to be stock, then you win the argument. But the Chevy engineers and those that purchased the cars at the time would have called you an idiot for wasting your money on a package that was designed for a free flowing exhaust but you insisted on leaving constipated.

The 65 and 66 425hp 427 were fabulous engines. The same cam and heads as the tri-power cars, but the single Holley 4 barrel was more inclined to open ALL the way during a run than the very smooth, but conservatively springed secondary diaghrams on the 3x2's. They also had 2.5 inch exhaust instead of the 2" used on the 69's and the taller intake manifold. All the L88/ZL1’s used the same intake as the 65-66; but with the center divider milled away for more upper end power. That is why they had to have the big hood. In 1970, they went back to a 2.5 pipe for the HP engines.

I understand the feelings regarding SOTP not always being valid. This is very true for + 20 horsepower. But if we aren't capable of knowing the difference between 2 cars nearly 100 hp apart at the rear wheels, same weight, and same gearing, we should just save our money and buy a Monte Carlo SS and pretend its the same as a C5.

The Z is undeniably fast and fast enough to better even the 425 hp 66 Vette, but an L88 running a free flowing exhaust is a completely different animal. Suspension sophistication does not play much of a part between the two cars for 1/4 times. Both the Z and the L88 could use the BFG Drag Radials which would give even the Z more straight-line traction than it factory tires, but the L88 will win.

Absolutely no hard feelings. I'd love to have that dinner with you and then take them to the track to play. After that, coffee or beer with much more talk about how much fun we had. This is fun stuff! :cheers:

Chuck

 

Chuck, The L-88 were never intended as street cars, but if you are comparing to a Z06 I think it's fair to do the comparison with exaust system hooked up as driven on the street. Even in the 60's you could not get away with open headers on the street for long. Ric

 

Compare the L-88 to the C5R that's apples more to apples than a Z06.L88's never worked correctly as street cars. Ric

 

Guys,

I'm talking about with mufflers. Yes much louder than the Z and very little restriction, but mufflers behind the headers in the side pipes. I drive the L88 on the street and wouldn't get away with it San Jose, let alone in my neighborhood if I ran open pipes. Running open pipes above 4000rpm at full throttle is truly like sticking a sharp pencil in your ear!

Saying the L88 is better compared to the C5R is not valid. TheC5R has virtually no parts in common with the any of the c5's. The only concessions I state needed for the L88 is the GM part numbered Kustom exhaust and the muffler baffles I am using now.

I agree that the L88 does not make for a particularly good street car for the majority of the motoring public. I have a friend with a 2000 C5 that feels the same way about the ZO6. It’s a matter of degrees. But if you live in a unpopulated rural part of the country with nice curvy open roads as I once did, and you love the scream of a brutally powerful 7000 rpm motor, crisp shifter and ultra stiff suspension as I do, the L88 is one fantastic package!

Chuck

 

Chuck, BB vettes are super, but the original L-88's with there radical(for the street) cams, ultra high compresion were good for raceing.Not comparable to the well manared Z06. I don't doubt yours is streetable(and modifyed from stock) and a grate car. I have an 8.8(931hp BB) camaro in my trailor, it's BB idles fine but it's not the best in so many things as the Z06 is. Ric

 

Ric,

The Z is by far a better street car. But my L88 engine is completely factory spec. 12:1, open chamber aluminum rectangular port heads, L88 cam, #'s correct intake, slightly more radical 950 Holley without choke tower & smoothed bores, etc., 2.19/1.88 valves, functional cold air hood, factory pistons, rods, crank, balancer, flywheel. MSD distributor because could no longer find a good K66 unit at reasonable price. As stated earlier, I may change the cam for a solid roller someday.

The 6 speed with 3.08 gears makes it more streetable. Not a car for city driving, but again, on the open road it is really great. At 75mph I'm turning about 2500 rpm and it fine. It's not for everyone, but I'm sure glad they did. :smash:

Chuck