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Soooo, what you're saying is...instead of modding a bought and paid for car, you want to go buy another one for more performance? You will incur more of a hit to your wallet going that route for sure, considering interest over the long term.
For me, buying a garage queen C5 for $16,000 meant I can put 20K into it before I approach C6Z prices. Being as that I do my own wrenching, if I were so inclined, I could make my C5 easily out perform a stock C6Z. Also, LS7 heads like to drop valves, and the chassis is exactly the same, but the C6Z one is aluminum, so it is lighter...but $20,000+ worth of lighter???
You are saving yourself a boat load of dough by NOT buying a C6Z, if all you want is more power. Slap on a $6000 supercharger and you have your C6Z power level. I put a 3600 stall and a 250 shot of nitrous on my C5 with full intake and exhaust, and stomped out several C6Z's...in an automatic. This cost me about 4K to accomplish, so C6Z power for $20,000, or less than half of what C6Z's were going for at the time.
I also didn't care for the interior, as it is tighter in a C6, and I feel the interior tooling was especially cheap for that generation of GM in general, but that is subjective.
Are you a builder? Or a buyer? One is ALWAYS cheaper than the other, but requires more work on your part. If you can stomach the $100+ an hour shop rate of most joints then good on you, but for a guy that builds his own stuff, that sounds F$%&#NG crazy expensive. So if you want to wrench, keep the C5. If you don't work on your car, buy the C6Z.
There are at least a dozen nation wide for ~25k with ~65k miles being the average, there are a handful for ~22k with over 100k miles. Most of them are yellow with the rest sprinkled around blue and black. Red seems to be around 6k more on any car. For the money, and what you get with the car, it's a no brainer.
Be realistic, would you travel across country for a $25,000 car? You can walk down to any Honda dealership and find that 25K won't even get you a brand new mini van. That price point is very much the exception, not the quid pro quo, which is why you quote it as nation wide.
I don't find it to be a no brainer when you have a paid off car with effectively the same chassis, that can be brought up to snuff, with quality parts, for less, and customize it to your taste along the way. Plus, you will definitley be paying more for purchasing another car due to interest. Not much room to grow if your money is tied up in your car payment, but you can make the car you've already bought and paid for into anything for $20,000; show car, track machine, pavement pounder, cushy commuter, you name it.
A friend of mine told me recently "I need something better for gas mileage to commute in." His paid off car gets 20mpg and eats $100 in gas a week. Say you go buy something for 15k, at 3% interest, 5 year loan, that gets 30mpg ($66 a week in gas). By the time your 60 month car loan is paid, your $66 a week in gas, and your car payment add up to around $33,000. Your beater would have cost you $26,000 in that same time period. In fact, after 9 YEARS OF OWNERSHIP, you will have paid about $45,972 in total for the new car, and $45,200 for the less efficient beater. It would take more than 9 years of ownership JUST TO BREAK EVEN. (This was a very real cost/benefit analysis I did for a friend. The numbers are rounded a bit, but they are all rounded down).
That's not including the increase in insurance premiums, the requirement of having to pay for full coverage on a car with a lein, the additional cost of maintenance and parts for a more advanced model, or the fact that the deficits will be larger as I used very conservative numbers in the above calculations and expecting prime intreset rates, something you won't even see if your credit score is bellow 760, etc, etc. I mean, at the very least, you aren't paying interest on a big dollar value over time, when you can piece the old car together, even if you spent the same money to get it where you want it to be as the C6Z.
So I have to, in good conscience, disagree with you sir. It is most certainly not a no brainer.
Last edited by ErikwithAK01; 02-21-2018 at 07:56 AM.
Soooo, what you're saying is...instead of modding a bought and paid for car, you want to go buy another one for more performance? You will incur more of a hit to your wallet going that route for sure, considering interest over the long term.
For me, buying a garage queen C5 for $16,000 meant I can put 20K into it before I approach C6Z prices. Being as that I do my own wrenching, if I were so inclined, I could make my C5 easily out perform a stock C6Z. Also, LS7 heads like to drop valves, and the chassis is exactly the same, but the C6Z one is aluminum, so it is lighter...but $20,000+ worth of lighter???
You are saving yourself a boat load of dough by NOT buying a C6Z, if all you want is more power. Slap on a $6000 supercharger and you have your C6Z power level. I put a 3600 stall and a 250 shot of nitrous on my C5 with full intake and exhaust, and stomped out several C6Z's...in an automatic. This cost me about 4K to accomplish, so C6Z power for $20,000, or less than half of what C6Z's were going for at the time.
I also didn't care for the interior, as it is tighter in a C6, and I feel the interior tooling was especially cheap for that generation of GM in general, but that is subjective.
Are you a builder? Or a buyer? One is ALWAYS cheaper than the other, but requires more work on your part. If you can stomach the $100+ an hour shop rate of most joints then good on you, but for a guy that builds his own stuff, that sounds F$%&#NG crazy expensive. So if you want to wrench, keep the C5. If you don't work on your car, buy the C6Z.
There's a couple flaws in your argument...all that money spent on mods is lost, it doesn't increase the resale value of the car. Whereas a stock car at the end of its depreciation curve holds its value.
Second is you say you can "outperform" a C6Z...are you talking a drag race or lap times on a road course? The Corvette, especially the Z06, was never built to be a drag racing car, its a proper road racing car. My hunch is you would get crushed by a C6 Z06 in a real race that involves turning the wheel.
Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 02-21-2018 at 09:15 AM.
This would be tricky. The C6Z has so much more going for it than straight line acceleration. I don't think you could match it's performance easily, without spending a small fortune on the car from front to back. If someone wants to dump tens of thousands into a twenty year old platform, more power to them. Just understand that you'll likely never see a penny of that money again.
Not "tricky" at all, since the C5 and C6 is essentially the same car underneath. The only real difference is the nicer C6 interior, you can change the C5's interior.
A decent head/cam swap on the LS1 will put you at LS7 power levels without the LS7 headaches. I made LS7 power with just a cam and bolt on's.
Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 02-21-2018 at 09:48 AM.
All good advice. But remember. 20K later, your 10K C5 will still be worth 10K. Not a problem if you intend to keep it for a loooooong time. If you pick up a 35-40K C6Z, hopefully it will still be worth 28-30K in five years or so.
Be realistic, would you travel across country for a $25,000 car? You can walk down to any Honda dealership and find that 25K won't even get you a brand new mini van. That price point is very much the exception, not the quid pro quo, which is why you quote it as nation wide.
I don't find it to be a no brainer when you have a paid off car with effectively the same chassis, that can be brought up to snuff, with quality parts, for less, and customize it to your taste along the way. Plus, you will definitley be paying more for purchasing another car due to interest. Not much room to grow if your money is tied up in your car payment, but you can make the car you've already bought and paid for into anything for $20,000; show car, track machine, pavement pounder, cushy commuter, you name it.
A friend of mine told me recently "I need something better for gas mileage to commute in." His paid off car gets 20mpg and eats $100 in gas a week. Say you go buy something for 15k, at 3% interest, 5 year loan, that gets 30mpg ($66 a week in gas). By the time your 60 month car loan is paid, your $66 a week in gas, and your car payment add up to around $33,000. Your beater would have cost you $26,000 in that same time period. In fact, after 9 YEARS OF OWNERSHIP, you will have paid about $45,972 in total for the new car, and $45,200 for the less efficient beater. It would take more than 9 years of ownership JUST TO BREAK EVEN. (This was a very real cost/benefit analysis I did for a friend. The numbers are rounded a bit, but they are all rounded down).
That's not including the increase in insurance premiums, the requirement of having to pay for full coverage on a car with a lein, the additional cost of maintenance and parts for a more advanced model, or the fact that the deficits will be larger as I used very conservative numbers in the above calculations and expecting prime intreset rates, something you won't even see if your credit score is bellow 760, etc, etc. I mean, at the very least, you aren't paying interest on a big dollar value over time, when you can piece the old car together, even if you spent the same money to get it where you want it to be as the C6Z.
So I have to, in good conscience, disagree with you sir. It is most certainly not a no brainer.
Half your post has no relation to what I posted. I flew to Texas and drove my FRC back, so yes if I'm saving 12-15k on a local price point I'll fly and drive it back. Gives me nice time to get to know the car.
I just went to my insurance last week for a quote on a Z, it was only $8 a year more than a year for my FRC. Pay premiums on parts? Seriously, parts for C5s aren't being produced at all anymore, those are premium prices on used stuff.
The Z isn't just an engine, trans cooler, diff cooler, dry sump, better electrical system, better spindles, brakes, etc. End of the day a C6Z will always hold a higher value over a base. He drops 10k on his base to get almost Z performance or takes that 10k, sells his base and buys a Z.
Not "tricky" at all, since the C5 and C6 is essentially the same car underneath. The only real difference is the nicer C6 interior, you can change the C5's interior.
A decent head/cam swap on the LS1 will put you at LS7 power levels without the LS7 headaches. I made LS7 power with just a cam and bolt on's.
What cam did you add that got you to 450rwhp+ and had the same torque and curve as the 4" stroke in the LS7, and still gets factory mileage?
That "essentially" word might refer to the mounting locations, but the drivetrain is significantly improved along the board, as I just stated.
The only "headache" would be a valvejob and new valves, which you would be doing either way according to your argument.
There's a couple flaws in your argument...all that money spent on mods is lost, it doesn't increase the resale value of the car. Whereas a stock car at the end of its depreciation curve holds its value.
Second is you say you can "outperform" a C6Z...are you talking a drag race or lap times on a road course? The Corvette, especially the Z06, was never built to be a drag racing car, its a proper road racing car. My hunch is you would get crushed by a C6 Z06 in a real race that involves turning the wheel.
I don't think you've ever been in a C5 with correctly balanced sway bars, and quality coilovers. That is there and above the handling capacity of a C6Z, and for around $3000. You are in different territory if you lighten up the big pork items on a C5 on top of that. Now, next thing is do H/C/I LS1 and replace all your typical internals along the way. You can easily make a reliable 430-450whp for $3500 including a custom tune (C6Z's dyno between 430 and 450 whp).
So what, now we're at $6500? Let's do a fresh coat of badass paint, any color your heart desires; let's call that 10K for quality paint. So now you, have the power, the handles, the fine, all for around $16,500. Pay someone to do the wrenching part; you can make it a square $20,000.
A nice thing about doing it that way, is that you make it EXACTLY what you want it to be. It is bespoke, to your specifications, plus you can pay for it a bit at a time. Take that $450+ a week you would be paying in car payments, and put it into the car (it adds up real quick).
You are right, I'll give you that, the C5 won't be worth the same. The C6Z is gonna be worth more if you decide to sell. However, it will be a decade plus before you break even on the car, and folks that tend to just buy a new car when they get bored of one, are gonna do just that when they get bored of this, and then you're out the money in the long term anyway.
I see a guy that has enjoyed his C5 so much throughout the years that he's driving the wheels off of it. Why not put that money back into it, and make it better than ever? You might find the differences between the two models annoy you, and now you're stuck with a car that you like, but kinda bugs you. I tend to place my bet on the known quantity.
Last edited by ErikwithAK01; 02-21-2018 at 10:52 AM.
I don't think you've ever been in a C5 with correctly balanced sway bars, and quality coilovers. That is there and above the handling capacity of a C6Z, and for around $3000. You are in different territory if you lighten up the big pork items on a C5 on top of that. Now do H/C/I LS1 and replace all your typical internals along the way. You can easily make a reliable 430-450whp for $3500 including a custom tune (C6Z's dyno between 430 and 450 whp).
So what, now we're at $6500? Let's do a fresh coat of badass paint, any color your heart desires; let's call that 10K for quality paint. So now you, have the power, the handles, the fine, all for around $16,500. Pay someone to do the wrenching part; you can make it a square $20,000.
A nice thing about doing it that way, is that you make it EXACTLY what you want it to be. It is bespoke, to your specifications, plus you can pay for it a bit at a time. Take that $450+ a week you would be paying in car payments, and put it into the car (it adds up real quick).
You are right, I'll give you that, the C5 won't be worth the same. The C6Z is gonna be worth more if you decide to sell. However, it will be a decade plus before you break even on the car, and folks that tend to just buy a new car when they get bored of one, are gonna do just that when they get bored of this, and then you're out the money in the long term anyway.
I see a guy that has enjoyed his C5 so much throughout the years that he's driving the wheels off of it. Why not put that money back into it, and make it better than ever? You might find the differences between the two models annoy you, and now you're stuck with a car that you like, but kinda bugs you.
What about the trans and diff upgrades that will be mandatory at those power levels? You will boil the fluid in a C5 on a full day track day. Peak HP is not the end of the formula for taking a Z around a road course, at the same horsepower the torque advantage will always make it the winner.
Your numbers are completely off too, but that's besides the point. You are not building a H/C/I Ls1 with internals for $3500. Parts would cost at least that plus machine work, balancing, bearings, etc.
Brakes on a C5 are not up to snuff in anyway. Add 1k just to go C6Z stuff.
Beef up the stock trans sure, for a minimum of 1k and you still don't get a cooler.
Diff, you'll break the half shafts at those numbers, so we'll say just parts alone to upgrade just to stand the power is about $600 but more likley 1k once you're inside and still don't get a cooler out of it.
When will people stop looking at catalog peak HP of cars and remember the whole equation.
I have a friend with a 2013 Z- LT-3 NICE fore sure .. I drive mine then his ( I have 505 FWHP about same as his 13-Z Can't tell much difference in the driving . The seats ECT. nicer looks cool rides is great .. But I like my 04 Z would not give it up .. Here is the deal on the C-5s some parts are getting hard to find for my 04 C-5 and will not be getting any easer to fine in the future .. .. Just on that point alone I would go with the C-6 just for the ease for finding replacement parts ..
I don't think you've ever been in a C5 with correctly balanced sway bars, and quality coilovers. That is there and above the handling capacity of a C6Z, and for around $3000. You are in different territory if you lighten up the big pork items on a C5 on top of that. Now, next thing is do H/C/I LS1 and replace all your typical internals along the way. You can easily make a reliable 430-450whp for $3500 including a custom tune (C6Z's dyno between 430 and 450 whp).
So what, now we're at $6500? Let's do a fresh coat of badass paint, any color your heart desires; let's call that 10K for quality paint. So now you, have the power, the handles, the fine, all for around $16,500. Pay someone to do the wrenching part; you can make it a square $20,000.
A nice thing about doing it that way, is that you make it EXACTLY what you want it to be. It is bespoke, to your specifications, plus you can pay for it a bit at a time. Take that $450+ a week you would be paying in car payments, and put it into the car (it adds up real quick).
You are right, I'll give you that, the C5 won't be worth the same. The C6Z is gonna be worth more if you decide to sell. However, it will be a decade plus before you break even on the car, and folks that tend to just buy a new car when they get bored of one, are gonna do just that when they get bored of this, and then you're out the money in the long term anyway.
I see a guy that has enjoyed his C5 so much throughout the years that he's driving the wheels off of it. Why not put that money back into it, and make it better than ever? You might find the differences between the two models annoy you, and now you're stuck with a car that you like, but kinda bugs you. I tend to place my bet on the known quantity.
This is basically what I'm doing to my C5 with the exception of paint. The chassis in the C5 is what makes it amazing, and money you put into it to exploit the chassis is icing. I really want to buy a C6 Z06 one of these days but right now I don't have the funds or a place to park it. If I do it'll be in addition to the C5. They will always be out there, and you know there are C6 Z's sitting in garages right now with 3k miles not getting driven. They'll still be in great shape in 5+ years, and ready for the picking.
Not "tricky" at all, since the C5 and C6 is essentially the same car underneath. The only real difference is the nicer C6 interior, you can change the C5's interior.
A decent head/cam swap on the LS1 will put you at LS7 power levels without the LS7 headaches. I made LS7 power with just a cam and bolt on's.
I wasn't talking about straight line performance. Simply having LS7 power levels does not = C6Z06 performance. If we're going to jump into mods, why bother with a C5 or C6? You can get into a nice C4 for $5k, and then have $30k in mod cash before approaching C6Z pricing territory!
Last edited by Verrückt ZR1; 02-21-2018 at 11:20 AM.
On a side note, the C6 having a nicer interior is a subjective statement. The interior in my '09 looks fantastic, no doubt, but it's so damn chintzy. I thought the interiors in my '00 vert and '04Z were "nicer", in all honesty.
Last edited by Verrückt ZR1; 02-21-2018 at 11:52 AM.
What cam did you add that got you to 450rwhp+ and had the same torque and curve as the 4" stroke in the LS7, and still gets factory mileage?
That "essentially" word might refer to the mounting locations, but the drivetrain is significantly improved along the board, as I just stated.
The only "headache" would be a valvejob and new valves, which you would be doing either way according to your argument.
Chassis is the SAME in a C6 with the exception of the aluminum frame in the Z06, all suspension parts and cradles swap from car to car. The C6's wheelbase is slightly longer than the C5. Weight is almost identical. The C6 Z06 has no handling advantage over a C5 Z06 if they are on the same tires.
I never said I had the same torque as the 427, I said I made the same power. On average a stone stock LS7 will make 440 ish whp SAE on a dynojet, I made 440/400 on two different dyno's. Cam is an EPS 228/236, 604/604 on a 111+1. Engine is 11 to 1, stock head port, stock LS6 intake, ported throttle body, headers, Vararam and thats it.
Buddy has a stock 2006 Z06, we will run soon to see how I measure up to it.
The 427 when it comes unwound is a $15,000 "OH ****"...I built my LS6 with forged rods and pistons for about $5,500-$6,000. LS7's drop valves even after they have been "fixed"....so there's THAT.
Last edited by FASTFATBOY; 02-21-2018 at 12:50 PM.
Chassis is the SAME in a C6 with the exception of the aluminum frame in the Z06, all suspension parts and cradles swap from car to car. The C6's wheelbase is slightly longer than the C5. Weight is almost identical.
I never said I had the same torque as the 427, I said I made the same power. On average a stone stock LS7 will make 440 ish whp SAE on a dynojet, I made 440/400 on two different dyno's. Cam is an EPS 228/236, 604/604 on a 111+1. Engine is 11 to 1, stock head port, stock LS6 intake, ported throttle body, headers, Vararam and thats it.
Buddy has a stock 2006 Z06, we will run soon to see how I measure up to it.
The 427 when it comes unwound is a $15,000 "OH ****"...I built my LS6 with forged rods and pistons for about $5,500-$6,000. LS7's drop valves even after they have been "fixed"....so there's THAT.
Torque is a measure of power, you don't get to ignore it to make an argument.
Are you going to run around a road course for a true comparison?
Chassis, are the same. Meaning what is capable of being bolted in place, the Z has better parts in every aspect of what goes into the chassis, makes no difference of chassis involvment. You will have to use C6 parts, to get C6 territory.
Show me a thread where there was a proper fix and still dropped a valve? "Proper" is the key word, because reusing the stock valves is not a proper fix. If you buy SS valves you are not going to drop them, plain and simple. I have a set of stock valves here and the coatings on the Ti are all over the place, with the crap guides they have there's no wonder they don't last. Not a single aftermarket head has had a valve failure that can be pointed at directly. Toss a massive cam in there, don't pair appropriate valve spring pressures with whatever lifter you run and you WILL have valvetrain issues regardless of the brand.
You also just made my point that you aren't building a forged internal engine for $3500.
The point here is not "a C5 can do what C6 can" because we all know it can. This thread is proving that total cost invested will be near or at Z levels without all the work.
You can't hardily see me but the blue Corvette right behind the front car is my C-5/ Z all stock and yes we were all out ,that be me going out of the pic . Yes I can drive but no one got close about 6-7 C-6s were behind me , so just saying will a 04 Z C-5 run with a C-6 yep .. Now I have 100 mo HP ,I can and do run with the stock C-6s all day long.. 04 Z handling is top notch for sure .. Just an FYI
I did the 6.2L LS3 swap into my C5Z - I went with the 495 motor (480) -
Brand new Crate motor from Chapman Chevrolet was around 7.5K.
I though about going to a C6Z but at this point why? I put down 425 rwhp and 408lbs of Ft lbs trq.
My swap was a little pricey as I also went with a new Mantic Clutch and a new Dewitts aluminum racing radiator with an integrated oil cooler. Among all the adapters needed for the swap.
02-21-2018, 05:31 AM
