did you not see my next round of vararam results??
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=435559

I was shocked I didn't get a comment from you.

 

I know he's around...I got a strange email from him last night...I responed to it but no word back yet....it was from Tom's email address but signed by another full name...weird. Maybe Tom Steele is the radio name and the other is the real name...kind of through me for a loop.:)

Tom...you got your ears on?


RG


[Modified by RG in Dallas, 11:49 AM 11/21/2002]

 

You are asking for trouble. The people that actually run the VR at the track know it works. My car has been breaking 117 MPH in the 1/4. I've yet to see a stock Z06 car on street tires do that at my track. We really do not need to hear a textbook reason why this is impossible.

 

........and then we have a stock z06 with a Halltech running 11.55 and a best trap of over 119! :nopity

 

I was talking about a stock box and street tires at my track on the same days that I am there. Ranger's runs were done with an aftermarket CAI on drag radials with a super heavy duty launch at a different track in different weather. Do you really want to start this all over again? We have another member posting MPH gains with a VR and you still want to doubt it and start more trouble?

:rolleyes: :nopity

 

Don't you just hate it when a Halltech is blowing the doors off a Vararam, it's got to **** you off! No #30 injectors, no headers, no custom Ls1 edit etc. etc. like one of the other vararam gang, just fast times. :seeya

 

Now don't go getting all defensive, I'm just pokin' at you guys and your love affair with this intake that is as good as the Vortex and the Halltech. :D :cheers: :lol: :chevy

 

racer, relax. No one is dissing Ranger and his AWESOME runs with the Halltech (or for that matter, any other bottom breather.) The point is, that design is the best.

Regardless of the bottom breather used, they will contribute to the fastest times/traps possible. I think you need to go back and re-read some of the old threads Tom was involved in....he wasn't a vararam hater per se, he didn't believe the bottom breather made a difference. (And I must admit, before putting one on my own car, I didn't believe it either. I was certainly a skeptic myself).

Not anymore.

What I find strange is, Halltech no longer manufactures the unit Ranger is using? Is this correct?? :confused:


[Modified by BLU-BY-U, 5:58 AM 11/22/2002]

 

The original issue in those other threads was "ram air" i.e. whether or not the Vararam or other aftermarket air boxes increase inlet air density via recovery of dynamic pressure.

They do not, because there is essentially no recoverable dynamic pressure at less than aircraft speeds. They may increase power, but any increases they create are either due to aspirating cooler air, or having lower overall restriction than the OEM airbox.

Duke

 

Yeah well, my VR builds more MAP in 4th gear than it does in first. Every single time. It sometimes matches baro pressure, it sometimes breaks it forcing the PCM to raise the reported baro pressure. The stock box was never able to anything even remotely close to that. Maybe that is not enough of a pressure increase to call it 'Ram Air'. I really don't care what it is, but my car now goes faster down the track. That is all I care about. The ironic part is all the people who doubt these products do not even try or test them.

Great results Blu-By-U :cheers:

 

Duke - I agree the original debate was over "ram air" but got WAY off track after that.

racer44 - You are being bad :) Ranger making 119 on the Halltech TRIC (be complete) compared to his stock MPH is the valid comparison. The value of his drag radials against my stock tires, his cold air etc. makes a comparison of his 119 vs my 118 irrelevant until we line up against each other, which I would do in a New York minute for the FUN of it - yes I race for FUN.

Blu's experience is relevent because he publicly was a sceptic and attained new personal best MPH (like I did) after the Vararam.

RB's point is that no one out there with a stock or top brather airbox is running high 117/118/119 MPH like the bottom breathers are. I for one do not know and do not care if the TRIC or Vortex are "better" then my Vararam, only that they do all work - that is the point. All the mumbo jumbo anout Ram Air means something to the internet racers, not to most of us who race and post our results for all to see.

Peace.

Les

 

:cheers: I also would love to see the 3 amigos (the Vararam trio) go head to head against the Halltech car. I am sure Ranger would also do it in a New York minute. :cheers: :cheers:

**EDIT, oops, there are 4 of you, I guess that blows my 3 amigos saying. (and it was meant in fun, in case you were taking it the wrong way. :cheers: )


[Modified by racer44, 11:03 AM 11/22/2002]

 

racer - no problem, it's all good :cheers: There are at least a couple guys running Vortex and TRIC and 5 running Vararam (PS, me, Optic, RB, Blu) that post times that I would love to get on the same track and play :) Win or lose, it would be fun.

Les :cheers:

 

I'm flattered! :)

I am now considered the "defender against the ram air myth guy."

I'll pop over and read it.

 

Just so it's not a secret, I e-mailed to see how low the vararam was going for - since I saw in another thread that there was a new low price.

I decided to send my Predator (tuning tool - like Hypertech for those of you who don't know) back until they get the details worked out on it. So I am getting $400 that I had already psychologically "spent" back, and thought I might see about testing the vararam.

There is quite a back-order right now, so I don't know if I will or not.

I'd like to clarify a couple of things though. My position has been pretty clear - yet mis-stated quite a bit - on the vararam.

I think the vararam website is a bunch of crap. PERIOD. It is pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo mixing ram-air with intake (manifold) tuning jargon that doesn't add up.

My take on it is that I am skeptical of the vararam. I am willing to look at data that support the vararam working. If it does work, then I'll buy one. And as I said above, I may buy one and test it myself and see what I think.

However, as the Halltech users are getting the same - OR BETTER - mph's, that sorta blows the whole RAM AIR thing right out of the water.

I have even considered (and even bid on a couple on EBAY, but didn't win them) getting a manometer and measuring the AIR PRESSURE at the intake on the stock box and then getting a vararam and testing to see what the pressures are on it.

Ross mentions his MAPS are higher on the vararam, but what he doesn't specifically point out is that they are MINUTELY higher. I have ALWAYS said that would happen, and even provided the scientific formula that predicts exactly what he is observing. Less than 0.1 psi boost at 100 mph.

We've all seen enough superchargers and turbos to know that 0.1 psi isn't a lot of hp. Certainly not the 30-40 that vararam advertises.

After looking at IAT's (Intake Air Temps) with the Predator while I was evaluating it, I believe that some of the bottom breather's advantage comes from cooler air after a heat soak.

On the open highway, you get pretty close to AMBIENT air temps at the manifold. But in stop and go traffic, the IAT's climb rapidly, and you could be looking at a 20 degree temp increase in the air coming into the engine until you are rolling for a little bit.

The Halltech may actually be the best design of all, it probably has less of a chance to actually restrict flow, while getting ambient air to the engine. But it is expensive.

The Vararam is expensive too, especially at the website price. But Exit 28 has it down just about low enough now to where it is a better price than anything I know of except the Breathless.

The only problem I see with the Breathless design, is that it could allow for hot air off the radiator to rise up at idle and heat soak would become a factor again. I have NOT measured this with the predator or any other device though.

I suspect that the Breathless design is the best bang for the buck. The vararam is slightly better $/performance than the Halltech now, and the Halltech may be the best overall design, but pricey.

Finally, I still think there is a better than fair chance that the vararam isn't any better than stock. It certainly hasn't been proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. And as I said, the website looks like a crock of crap to me.

 

False statement. I never claimed big gains in pressure, I just said a gain was possible. I was never really concerned with pressure gains or 'Ram-Air'. That has always been your game. I have always stressed cylinder fill rate, air velocity, MAF rates, and making up for the pressure losses of the stock box. And BTW I am getting about about .25 psi, not less than .1 psi.

I really don't want to get into this again with you since you are really out of your league on this one. You need to run real tests on the car and take real measurements off of it before you can add anything helpful to the discussion. Textbook stuff is fine, but things change in the real world. I am not surprised that you are sending back the Predator. That device is doing exactly what I said it was going to do. You assumed that you could just advance the timing, lean the car, and safely gain power. You were wrong.

I am still not sure why you are even bothering with the Predator, Vararam, Halltech, or any other mod. You have said that you are not interested in racing at the track. The minor gains provided by these minor mods are not going to do anything for a purely street driven car, and do you really need more than 405 HP and 400 TQ on the street anyway?


[Modified by rbartick, 7:57 PM 11/23/2002]

 

Well Les, you don't have it right. Where in the above post did I say that?

As I clearly said above. The pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo on the website is crap.

Les, if I am wrong on that - please explain how BLU and everyone else is getting such great gains on the first 1/8 mile and on the dyno? The website claims ram-air. How does it get ram-air on the dyno?

That's an interesting statement. I'm really not even sure how to respond to it. Are you saying he shouldn't sell it to me because I might test it and find that it doesn't work, so it is safer not to let me get my hands on one and destroy the myth?

It could look that way to someone reading it I think...

So be sure not to sell Tom one, because he might prove otherwise.

I'd also like to point out the LIE implied by your post. You are talking about ALL BOTTOM BREATHERS in your post.

ANYONE with a shred of sense that has read my posts, even just the one above can see that my beef is with the RAM-AIR lie attributed to these air filter assemblies.

The HALLTECH does NOT use ram air to get BETTER MPHS than the vararam.

Tell another lie Les, explain that...

My point is clear. The LIES all "lie" on the webpages of vararam (and breathless too, last time I checked) as to how these things work.

Finally, WHAT DEBATE? The only DEBATE part is over whether they work. You guys have almost never engaged me in a debate over HOW they work, because you haven't a clue.

BLU at least discusses that in the other thread. And he - like me - is actually CURIOUS as to how the vararam DOES what it claims to do.

You just take my questions as a personal attack on your integrity or intelligence. Which I don't think I have attacked until this post. :)

Les - Skepticism and intellectual curiousity can help. ;)


[Modified by Tom Steele, 10:55 AM 11/24/2002]

 

No, that is vararams game. It says so on their website. http://www.vararam.com

And I didn't make a false statement. I didn't say that you claimed they were big gains. I said that when you talk about the pressure gains, you usually don't mention that they are negligible.

At what speed and how do you figure? I'd like to see that.

You're right Ross. I'm an idiot. It is so clear to all of you how the vararam works that you don't even lower yourself to explain it to anyone else. You are the chosen ones.

I'm just dense as lead because I can't see how the unit is getting better cylinder fills and air velocities and ram air sitting still on a dyno, or in the first half of a drag race when speeds average less than 40-45 mph.

I'm clearly the idiot here - BECAUSE I ASKED QUESTIONS.

Well using you, Les and Ric as examples, I CAN'T WAIT until I can become as helpful as YOU all are!!!

Should I dare ask again? HOW is the vararam getting its gains on a dyno sitting still and on the first 1/8 mile of a race???

Can't WAIT for the HELPFUL response!!!

Actually I sent it back because I didn't think they had the tune worked out, and because there were problems with the fan settings - which is one of the reasons I bought it, and because they wouldn't release the changes it made to your tune - which was promised when I placed my order.

Let me see if I got this straight Ross, I tested something - but since it wasn't something you believed in - I was wrong for doing so? I thought you said I was SUPPOSED to test things.

I am so confused!

You're kidding right? How many people are out there with cam and head packages that have never been to the strip?

Besides, what does this have to do with the ACTUAL DISCUSSION at hand? Is it just a distraction to take people's attention away from the questions about the vararam? Let's stay on topic to some degree, shall we?

You'll note that I didn't start this thread. I was asked to join it in the title I think.

 

Thank you Dr. Les.

Feel free to reply to whomever you like. I'll continue to respond to whomever I like, whether it is you or not.

I don't respond to people anyway. I respond to what is written. That is your problem. You take all this stuff personally. My questions about the vararam aren't directed at you personally.

Works for me. For those of you who don't want to guess at my motives, here they are. I think the website at vararam spouts off a lot of nonsense. I am not sure the thing does anything at all.

There are a number of religiously faithful fans of the vararam here. They make some pretty strong claims about the improvements they have gotten using the product. I doubted them.

Once they began posting their numbers, some trends began to show. Blu added to this trend. But there still aren't a LOT of vararam users who have posted before and after tests yet. We're dealing with a sample size of maybe 5-6 people.

First, they all claim to have gotten big improvements. While Ross doesn't agree with me, his numbers showed HUGE (0.3 second, 3 mph) gains in the 1/8 mile.

Blu also has big gains in the 1/8 and also saw big gains on the dyno with the car sitting still.

The question now remains, how did this happen? It wasn't ram air. What is the vararam's trick?

As I mentioned in the other thread (the one I was directed to at the top of this one) I wonder what would happen if someone dyno'd with NO AIR FILTER. Maybe the vararam's secrets are:

1. Ambient (cold) air.
2. Lower restriction (and perhaps less filtration?)

Good, I am mad at you too! :lol:

Whatever floats your boat, Les. Best wishes.

 

>>No, that is vararams game.
>>It says so on their website.

Nobody seems to care about the WWW site except you. I do not see them making claims about big pressure gains anyway. If you talk to Patrick on the phone he will not even mention big pressure gains. If you really want to know what is going on with the airbox just call him.

>>I said that when you talk about the
>>pressure gains, you usually don't
>>mention that they are negligible.

I really try to avoid the entire pressure gain subject. I am just responding to something that you wrote and you keep harping on. The stock box has pressure losses. As far as pressure goes the only thing I wanted was to eliminate those losses and I have. I guess in the very beginning I hoped to blast right through baro big time, but it never happened. After thinking about it logically and talking to Patrick I now do not expect to break too far past baro. I have broken it a few times, which just causes the PCM to up the Baro parameter.


>>At what speed and how do you figure?
>>I'd like to see that.

I've already posted plenty of data in the past. I do not want to continue that anymore since we will just get Moparmike in here blasting me again.


>>>I really don't want to get into this
>>>again with you since you are really
>>>out of your league on this one.

>You're right Ross. I'm an idiot. It is so
>clear to all of you how the vararam
>works that you don't even lower
>yourself to explain it to anyone else.

Sorry Tom, but you are not testing at the track against other Z06 cars on the same track, same day, same time, you are not running on the dyno, and you are not taking real readings off the car. You are just guessing and speculating based on books and WWW sites. Unfortunately that does put you out of the game, and this is not meant to be a personal attack.


>I'm just dense as lead because I can't
>see how the unit is getting better cylinder
>fills and air velocities and ram air sitting
>still on a dyno, or in the first half of a
>drag race when speeds average less
>than 40-45 mph.
>I'm clearly the idiot here - BECAUSE
>I ASKED QUESTIONS.

I did not call you an idiot. I said that you were out of your league. If you really want answers call the manufacturer. I am not going to sit here posting about the different operating characteristics I now get because I really don't have enough time to do that. I also do not want to come off like someone who is promoting one product over another. I want to just remain a third party person.


>HOW is the vararam getting its
>gains on a dyno sitting still and
>on the first 1/8 mile of a race???
>Can't WAIT for the HELPFUL response!!!

Why not just call Patrick? It is toll free. I am sure he will talk to you about filter material, air velocity in the ram tube bend and in the airbox, airbox manifold volume based on filter spacing, and more. Unfortunately the chances are that you will not believe him.

>Actually I sent it back because I didn't
>think they had the tune worked out, and
>because there were problems with the fan settings

Yeah, whatever.


>Let me see if I got this straight Ross, I tested
>something - but since it wasn't something you
>believed in - I was wrong for doing so?

No Tom, you originally said that you were going to advance the timing and lean the car and get a real and safe gain because GM leaves room on the table that allows you to do this. You also said that you did not need to put the car on a wideband dyno to get a gain. That is where you went wrong. That is about the worst tuning approach I've ever heard.


>>I am still not sure why you are even
>>bothering with the Predator, Vararam,
>>Halltech, or any other mod. You have
>>said that you are not interested in
>>racing at the track.
>>The minor gains provided by these
>>minor mods are not going to do
>>anything for a purely street driven car

>You're kidding right? How many
>people are out there
>with cam and head packages
>that have never been to the strip?

No I am not kidding. The stock Z06 is already fast enough for street duty. I do not see any reason to install heads & cams for a purely street driven car. You will just end up killing someone.