Ram Air - Myth or Truth?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,427
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From: Fountain Inn, South Carolina
Originally Posted by chuckster
I will Gladly post the results on the forum.. So if anyone in S. FLorida wants to set up the test using electric blowers on the Dyno to simulate the 100+mph of going through the traps... I will offer my car to do it.. I'll even run the test with no filter...
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,602
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From: Palm City Florida
Originally Posted by George8211
Blowers is a good thought... but the air that foils around the C5's body does not create the same pressure as a direct mount to the Vararam system. I don't have a Vararm... but I'm sure it's no worse than than the blackwing, most likely it is a better set up. With the computers to tweak the fuel mixture as leaner conditions occur, it is ideal for new cars.
We have to ASSUME enough air DOES make it into the nostrils to affect the performance of the Vararam.
Also the reason it makes sense to use my car as the test mule is I am already Tweaked.. I used LS1 EDit to Dial in the Vararam.. Also I checked it on a Wide Band Dyno... It's Spot on....
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: Palm City Florida
Originally Posted by Korreck
The Vararararararam isn't drawing hot air? Is that what you're saying? If so, lay your hand on the pavement at the strip. Let me know how cool it is. And then explain why the Vararam isn't sucking in that hot air reflected off the pavement.
Then I converted to the Vararam and reinstalled a new Radiator Cover..
ALL my Autotap logs consistantly showed significantly hotter IAT temps with the Vortec intake than with the Vararam! I was not even looking for that and it was readily apparent..
So yes 12" off the pavement is STILL colder than right off the Radiator fins...
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 38,314
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Originally Posted by Sandra Bigwoode
Supercharging while drawing from a slightly cut Z06 airbox works quite well for my Z06, but I thought VaramVaramVarams generate so much 'ram air' that they are almost 'forced induction' and not 'naturally aspirated'... =;-]
I was not aware that the FTC enforces sanctions against terrorists, do we give up all consumer fraud investigation simply because some terrorists are killing US soldiers in Iraq?
I would like to see the FTC come in and make the vendors prove their claims with 3rd party dyno testing I suspect many of the vendors would not be around much longer if their claims were shown to be vaporware...
Don't we have enough government intervention in our homes, and work enviorments already. I would much rather see our tax dollars go towards fighting terrorism, than trying to prove your point.
My Vortech V-2 'just works' but the physics of 6.5 psig at redline into the LS6 manifold are not a secret and follow ordinary rules of physics and chemistry.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,949
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From: Monticello MN
Originally Posted by chuckster
But.. even so... The real debate is if 100+mph air being shoved into the intake is enough to overcome pumping loss and shoe a dyno gain...
We have to ASSUME enough air DOES make it into the nostrils to affect the performance of the Vararam.
Also the reason it makes sense to use my car as the test mule is I am already Tweaked.. I used LS1 EDit to Dial in the Vararam.. Also I checked it on a Wide Band Dyno... It's Spot on....
We have to ASSUME enough air DOES make it into the nostrils to affect the performance of the Vararam.
Also the reason it makes sense to use my car as the test mule is I am already Tweaked.. I used LS1 EDit to Dial in the Vararam.. Also I checked it on a Wide Band Dyno... It's Spot on....
Ed
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2003
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Originally Posted by Sandra Bigwoode
Didn't you bring up the supercharger issue?
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; Jul 8, 2005 at 12:02 AM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
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From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by EB20003
'fraid not..........Actually I did not "bring up" the supercharger issue. Someone else did. Supercharging was initially mentioned before ( and I mean well before and yes, more than once before) my response to you. Go back and read the entire thread if you don't believe me.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,809
Likes: 236
From: Utah
Originally Posted by shurite44
Yep went down hill even quicker than the last 10 CAI posts.
SideStep this would be interesting and I would like to see the results. But for me there really is only one test that matters and that is trap speed and qtr mile ET's. The two comparisons that come to mind for me is EB's comparison with the blackwing which showed significant gains using the vararam, and Tracy's comparison between the bottom feeder CAI and the vararam. But like I said your test would be very interesting and could help people tune there vehicles better I would think.
300 you are a little off track I think. It is good to research things but the people that are telling you their results with the vararam have actually used the product they are not in any way going by their advertised claims. The reason some of us get aggressive when someone posts these scientific type arguments is we know from personal and practical experience that they are in error. I have read several articles on air box resonance but like I said before the vararam was designed to utilize cold air, high flow filter, and ram air. I don't think they hit upon a majical air box resonance frequency by accident. And if they tuned it this way on purpose they would advertise it.
So here is the thing, I tell people about the vararam because I have used them on two C5's, which I drag raced two-three times per week for close to 3 years. I know what it is capable of. I have seen posts of people who have put on the Summit LS1-LS6 conversion package and not received the gains people have gotten with the vararam. So anyway if you have not tried it you probably should I can assure you that you will probably delete your post. The reason I say this is after you use one and gain 3-4 tenths over the OEM box and 1-2 tenths over any other CAI on the market you will feel a little silly using a math equation to prove there is no ram air.
SideStep this would be interesting and I would like to see the results. But for me there really is only one test that matters and that is trap speed and qtr mile ET's. The two comparisons that come to mind for me is EB's comparison with the blackwing which showed significant gains using the vararam, and Tracy's comparison between the bottom feeder CAI and the vararam. But like I said your test would be very interesting and could help people tune there vehicles better I would think.
300 you are a little off track I think. It is good to research things but the people that are telling you their results with the vararam have actually used the product they are not in any way going by their advertised claims. The reason some of us get aggressive when someone posts these scientific type arguments is we know from personal and practical experience that they are in error. I have read several articles on air box resonance but like I said before the vararam was designed to utilize cold air, high flow filter, and ram air. I don't think they hit upon a majical air box resonance frequency by accident. And if they tuned it this way on purpose they would advertise it.
So here is the thing, I tell people about the vararam because I have used them on two C5's, which I drag raced two-three times per week for close to 3 years. I know what it is capable of. I have seen posts of people who have put on the Summit LS1-LS6 conversion package and not received the gains people have gotten with the vararam. So anyway if you have not tried it you probably should I can assure you that you will probably delete your post. The reason I say this is after you use one and gain 3-4 tenths over the OEM box and 1-2 tenths over any other CAI on the market you will feel a little silly using a math equation to prove there is no ram air.
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From: Nr London England
Originally Posted by shurite44
Ram air refers to the what happens when a vehicle moves through the air. Ram air cools your radiator. That is the term applied to this concept. Look up ram air in an automotive term book, it's there by the way. This is like saying "friction is a myth", "internal combustion is a myth", "lift on an aircraft's wing is a myth.
Maybe the question should be can ram air produce HP in an engine. I guess I would not have so many problems with it stated this way. I would still say yes it does but at least the question would not sound so silly.
Maybe the question should be can ram air produce HP in an engine. I guess I would not have so many problems with it stated this way. I would still say yes it does but at least the question would not sound so silly.
Due to the question mark being there along with the wording, it would be logical to assume that it was a question not a statement.
Also in the cliffnotes I stated that Ram Air was not a myth.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Cliffnotes:
-Ram Air a myth? = NO
-Does it work on a road car = NO
-At 150mhp there is next to no gain.
-Significant gains arn't seen until 300mph+
-The air box is the key, not the ducting.
-When buying a CAI/induction kit look for the one that uses air box resonance
-Ram Air a myth? = NO
-Does it work on a road car = NO
-At 150mhp there is next to no gain.
-Significant gains arn't seen until 300mph+
-The air box is the key, not the ducting.
-When buying a CAI/induction kit look for the one that uses air box resonance
Ram air certainly works and there is plenty of science and real time data to back up the claim. What is in doubt is whether ram air has any significant affect on a road car traverling at compartively slow speeds over a 1/4 mile drag course.
I personally don't doubt that the Vararam makes power but so far I have not seen any evidance that it is utilising any form of ram air, which is what Vararam claim it does. There are however plenty of other reasons for why it makes power which have already been discussed.
-filter
-'cool air ducts'
-air box resonance
If the Bristol Fighter (a high end performance car, with an intake system designed to offer the greatest gains possible) has to acheive 200mph before there is any signifiancant benefit from ram air and then only slight. How is the Vararam doing it at much lower speeds?
Vararam claim 40hp increase. I would assume as they are referring to HP and not BHP then it should be a measurement taken at the rear wheels.
Has any one actually seen this gain from the VR-B2 ONLY, with no other mods? I would genuienly like to know.
Because if you believe all the marketing claims the Ls1 should be way more powerful.
These are not accurate figures but I have seen claims of them from manufactures.
-headers & X pipe = 25rwhp
-exhaust = 10rwhp
-Vararam = 40rwhp
-pulley = 8rwhp
-tune = 20rwhp
Total +103rwhp
So if a normal car dyno's around the 300rwhp mark (345bhp C5 M6). That would be over 400rwhp, a figure that I'm sure is not impossible but from my research one that would be more common with a cam swap and the bolt ons.
Safety Car
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From: Sunshine State
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
If the Bristol Fighter (a high end performance car, with an intake system designed to offer the greatest gains possible) has to acheive 200mph before there is any signifiancant benefit from ram air and then only slight. How is the Vararam doing it at much lower speeds?
Safety Car
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From: Sunshine State
Originally Posted by George8211
Oh ya... and your Blackwing mounted above your 200* radiator isn't drawning in any heat. Besides the air coming in from the bottom breather is 6 inches lower that the fog light ducts of the Vararam.
When the car is stationary... the air box mod is drawing in warmer air than in the factory mounted location.
When the car is stationary... the air box mod is drawing in warmer air than in the factory mounted location.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Sunshine State
Originally Posted by chuckster
Bob, I got this one! I had the Breathless Vortec Airbox that went through the the radiator cover...
Then I converted to the Vararam and reinstalled a new Radiator Cover..
ALL my Autotap logs consistantly showed significantly hotter IAT temps with the Vortec intake than with the Vararam! I was not even looking for that and it was readily apparent..
So yes 12" off the pavement is STILL colder than right off the Radiator fins...
Then I converted to the Vararam and reinstalled a new Radiator Cover..
ALL my Autotap logs consistantly showed significantly hotter IAT temps with the Vortec intake than with the Vararam! I was not even looking for that and it was readily apparent..
So yes 12" off the pavement is STILL colder than right off the Radiator fins...
So now you or somebody will say I'm losing power off the line. Who cares. Less wheel spin.
I hope you read this before you start hollering at me again for not replying.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,602
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From: Palm City Florida
Originally Posted by C5XTASY
Give, nationally known Corvette tuner, Doug Rippie, of DRM Motorsports, a call. When Doug tunes a Corvette with a Vararam he accounts for it in his tune because they go lean at 100+ mph. He road tests with a wide band as part of his tune. The man is very, very good. I'm not running a Vararam because of filtering issues, but they do work.
Ed
Ed
I can personally vouch for the lean condition at 100+ that was how I had to tune it.. I made numerous runs with Autotap (On a deserted backroad of course
)I consistantly saw lean at WOT at 80+ MPH. Once I used LS1-Edit to compenasate for it I am perfect now...
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: Palm City Florida
Originally Posted by Korreck
Charlie, it's over the condensor, not the radiator. And I agree with your analysis while the car is stationary. Once moving your Vortec would be much cooler.
So now you or somebody will say I'm losing power off the line. Who cares. Less wheel spin.
I hope you read this before you start hollering at me again for not replying.
So now you or somebody will say I'm losing power off the line. Who cares. Less wheel spin.
I hope you read this before you start hollering at me again for not replying.
My IAT temps were always LOWER when moving when I installed the Vararam.
When stationary there was not much diff because of heat soak....
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From: Lackey, my own dragstrip VA.
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Originally Posted by Korreck
C'mon George. When the car is stationary who cares?
The tire speed has a direct effect on the velocity of air pulled through the front of the car due to collateral air flow from the tire tread..........of course the tread depth has an effect as well