I Think I Have A Clutch Problem
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 32
From: Central Florida
For the record, here is my normal clutch advice to those thinking of swapping clutches:
Owners that follow that advice generally don't face post-install vibration issues. For example, a good installer will inspect the torque tube while the drive-train is apart....
Ranger
Originally Posted by Ranger
Four small suggestions to those facing a clutch replacement.
(1) Seach the archives (C5 Z06 and C5 Tech) for the words "clutch" AND "vibration" because there is a history of post-clutch-swap woes you need to be aware of.
(2) Choose your installer carefully. If you don't, the odds are good that you will not be happy with the results. You want a technician with a lot of (favorable) experience in swapping C5/C6 clutches.
(3) Insist that the new clutch assembly be sent to a reputable machine shop for balancing before the installation. Do this even if the installer insists it is unnecessary, "because it comes balanced by the manufacturer."
(4) Before you drop your car off for the installation, be very careful to memorize how much your shifter vibrates under various conditions.
Anyone that shrugs and ignores this advice has heighten the odds they will end up with notable drive train vibrations, originating from the clutch assembly, and they will have a bad time getting them resolved by their installer or anyone else.
(1) Seach the archives (C5 Z06 and C5 Tech) for the words "clutch" AND "vibration" because there is a history of post-clutch-swap woes you need to be aware of.
(2) Choose your installer carefully. If you don't, the odds are good that you will not be happy with the results. You want a technician with a lot of (favorable) experience in swapping C5/C6 clutches.
(3) Insist that the new clutch assembly be sent to a reputable machine shop for balancing before the installation. Do this even if the installer insists it is unnecessary, "because it comes balanced by the manufacturer."
(4) Before you drop your car off for the installation, be very careful to memorize how much your shifter vibrates under various conditions.
Anyone that shrugs and ignores this advice has heighten the odds they will end up with notable drive train vibrations, originating from the clutch assembly, and they will have a bad time getting them resolved by their installer or anyone else.
Ranger
Pro
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
From: Vanceboro NC
Originally Posted by Ranger
For the record, here is my normal clutch advice to those thinking of swapping clutches:
Owners that follow that advice generally don't face post-install vibration issues. For example, a good installer will inspect the torque tube while the drive-train is apart....
Ranger
Owners that follow that advice generally don't face post-install vibration issues. For example, a good installer will inspect the torque tube while the drive-train is apart....
Ranger
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 32
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by willyfastz
So you take every torque tube apart when your doing a install, just wondering.
If the motor/drive train don't vibrate before the job and do vibrate after the job, then the heart ache begins. My advice is intend to reduce the incidence of that.
Ranger
Racer
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
In the case of the original poster here, where Torque tube has issues, does the whole assembly have to be replaced or can it be rebuilt? If tt is bent I assume the whole thing has to be replaced? And one last question, if the torque tube is bad/broken/failing how will it affect performance?
thanks!
thanks!
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 32
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by willyfastz
I'm with ya on the vibration stuff, but you made it sound like you pull all the torque tubes apart on every install you do, do you?
I have learned about clutch vibration through bad installs the hard way. As have other owners in our Corvette club. Since our events, we try to spread the word on avoiding the issues that befell us.
I am sruprised that you seem to believe that torque tubes somehow naurally degrade on a low mileage near-stock Corvette. On the other hand, bad things do happen when the drive train is dropped and reinstalled repeatedly while attempting to rectify vibrations caused by errors in an initial clutch swap.
I personally practice the same due-diligence on a clutch installer as on an eye or heart surgeon that I'd consider working on my family or myself.
Suspect there are more horror stories involving clutch swaps than any other single maintenance event on Corvettes. I am in PM/email exchanges on a regular basis with owners rying to resolve post-install vibration issues. Quite a few lead to buy-backs when a dealer did the install. But when shops did it, the resolution often involves the owner eating substantial costs. Many, many sad stories. Most avoidable by following simple rules from the beginning.
Ranger
Last edited by Ranger; Sep 20, 2006 at 12:02 PM.
Pro
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
From: Vanceboro NC
Originally Posted by schpodie
In the case of the original poster here, where Torque tube has issues, does the whole assembly have to be replaced or can it be rebuilt? If tt is bent I assume the whole thing has to be replaced? And one last question, if the torque tube is bad/broken/failing how will it affect performance?
thanks!
thanks!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
From: DFW tx
In my case two botched installs lead to the torque tube bushings getting destroyed and the torque tube bending. Since I had zero vibration issues before the clutch swap I am 100% convinced the botched install caused the torque tube issues.
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Pro
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 733
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From: Vanceboro NC
Originally Posted by Ranger
Please provide a link to any post I have ever made where you say I represented myself as an installer.
I have learned about clutch vibration through bad installs the hard way. As have other owners in our Corvette club. Since our events, we try to spread the word on avoiding the issues that befell us.
I am sruprised that you seem to believe that torque tubes somehow naurally degrade on a low mileage near-stock Corvette. On the other hand, bad things do happen when the drive train is dropped and reinstalled repeatedly while attempting to rectify vibrations caused by errors in an initial clutch swap.
I personally practice the same due-diligence on a clutch installer as on an eye or heart surgeon that I'd consider working on my family or myself.
Suspect there are more horror stories involving clutch swaps than any other single maintenance event on Corvettes. I am in PM/email exchanges on a regular basis with owners rying to resolve post-install vibration issues. Quite a few lead to buy-backs when a dealer did the install. But when shops did it, the resolution often involves the owner eating substantial costs. Many, many sad stories. Most avoidable by following simple rules from the beginning.
Ranger
I have learned about clutch vibration through bad installs the hard way. As have other owners in our Corvette club. Since our events, we try to spread the word on avoiding the issues that befell us.
I am sruprised that you seem to believe that torque tubes somehow naurally degrade on a low mileage near-stock Corvette. On the other hand, bad things do happen when the drive train is dropped and reinstalled repeatedly while attempting to rectify vibrations caused by errors in an initial clutch swap.
I personally practice the same due-diligence on a clutch installer as on an eye or heart surgeon that I'd consider working on my family or myself.
Suspect there are more horror stories involving clutch swaps than any other single maintenance event on Corvettes. I am in PM/email exchanges on a regular basis with owners rying to resolve post-install vibration issues. Quite a few lead to buy-backs when a dealer did the install. But when shops did it, the resolution often involves the owner eating substantial costs. Many, many sad stories. Most avoidable by following simple rules from the beginning.
Ranger
If you look at Robs sig you will see that in no way is his car low mileage or nearly stock. And his car was on a car tailor when it arrived here with a busted pressure plate. So you should find a post that I've made that implies a near stock low mileage torque tube has naturally degraded. And actually it could if that near stock low mileage car has had the crap beat out of it.
I haven't had any problems with any of my clutch installs and I guaranty none of them have had to pm you about any problems. And even though this didn't start out as my problem I have worked with Rob all the way with this. I take great care and pride in all my work and I don't just tell my customers a bunch of BS to make them think something is right that really isn't even if it cost me money.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 32
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by 97Rob
...Bought a Textraila clutch pressure plate, and billet steel fly wheel. After putting 450 miles on the Tex, I started to get on it a little. I have discovered a pretty bad vibration around 4000 RPMS, this is under a load, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears. It is also present in neutral at 3500-4000 RPMS, not quite as bad, but definately there....
Originally Posted by willyfastz
I was about as happy as Rob when we pulled the shaft out and saw the front coupler busted all up like that. 
Ranger
Pro
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 733
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From: Vanceboro NC
Originally Posted by Ranger
As an installer, can you provide an opinion on how Rob's torque tube front coupler managed to deteriorate to "busted up" status in 450 miles of driving after his Textralia clutch was installed?
Ranger
Ranger
Rob drove the car very easy to break the clutch in like it was suposed to be. After that it had a vibration the first time he really got on it. It even had dyno pulls. The coupler wasn't completely busted but it waas in bad shape. In no way did my install have anything to do with it. I would guess that you had more to do with the busted coupler than I do.
I really didn't want this to get to this point but you just seem to keep right on trying to point the blame at me. I'm not one to place blame but if I'm back into a corner what choice do I have?
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 32
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by willyfastz
If I had a copy of your pm were you told him to rev his car up to 5500 rpm's with a busted preasure plate I could show you some of what helped break that front coupler....
Originally Posted by Ranger
Some diagnosis suggestions:
(1) Car at rest; engine on; tranny in neutral. clutch out; collect the data (see below)
(2) Repeat (1) with the clutch in; collect the data.
Data to collect:
Raise rpm to 1000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
Raise rpm to 2000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
Raise rpm to 3000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
Raise rpm to 4000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
Raise rpm to 5000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
(3) Car at rest, with Oil temp above 100 degrees; engine off; clutch in, execute 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6, 1-R shifts. Note behavior of shifter.
Post your results. We'll help from there.
Ranger
(1) Car at rest; engine on; tranny in neutral. clutch out; collect the data (see below)
(2) Repeat (1) with the clutch in; collect the data.
Data to collect:
Raise rpm to 1000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
Raise rpm to 2000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
Raise rpm to 3000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
Raise rpm to 4000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
Raise rpm to 5000, is vibration present? If yes, how much?
(3) Car at rest, with Oil temp above 100 degrees; engine off; clutch in, execute 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, 5-6, 1-R shifts. Note behavior of shifter.
Post your results. We'll help from there.
Ranger
The rest of the story. Here is what Rob97 posted:
Originally Posted by 97Rob
Wondering who has had a torque tube problem. I'm going to make this short.
-A month or so ago the pressure plate broke while launching at the track due to the bolts not being torqued properly. This caused a terrible vibration. Ask for advise on the forum to originally diagnose the problem. Was advised to rev the car at various rpm's and document the amount of vibration, so I did, reving it up to 4500. Was advised to go up to 5000-5500, but didn't feel comfortable w/ the amount of vibration I felt.
-Well took the car apart and discovered the broken pressure plate. Ordered whole new Assembly, installed it, and there was a vibration there. Nothing at all like before, but bad enough that we got textralia to send me a whole new clutch assembly. We installed all the new components and the vibration was still there. Now remember this vibration is nothing like when the pressure plate was broken. It felt like a flywheel out of balance.
- Now we are thinking that while diving home from the track w/ a broken pressure plate and all the reving while trying to diagnose the problem something else most have been damaged. Considered internal engine bearings, until Willyfastz faxed over some info on damaged torque tube diagnosis. I put the car on jack stands, cranked it, put a rubber mallet handle to various components, and the clunking sound that is causing the vibration is defiantly more significant when placed on the torque tube.
I'm interested in hearing of similar experiences, professional advice.
-Damn! I tried to some it all up as quick as possible. Took longer than I thought.
P.S. This project has been tough. Hope I'm nearing the end.
-A month or so ago the pressure plate broke while launching at the track due to the bolts not being torqued properly. This caused a terrible vibration. Ask for advise on the forum to originally diagnose the problem. Was advised to rev the car at various rpm's and document the amount of vibration, so I did, reving it up to 4500. Was advised to go up to 5000-5500, but didn't feel comfortable w/ the amount of vibration I felt.
-Well took the car apart and discovered the broken pressure plate. Ordered whole new Assembly, installed it, and there was a vibration there. Nothing at all like before, but bad enough that we got textralia to send me a whole new clutch assembly. We installed all the new components and the vibration was still there. Now remember this vibration is nothing like when the pressure plate was broken. It felt like a flywheel out of balance.
- Now we are thinking that while diving home from the track w/ a broken pressure plate and all the reving while trying to diagnose the problem something else most have been damaged. Considered internal engine bearings, until Willyfastz faxed over some info on damaged torque tube diagnosis. I put the car on jack stands, cranked it, put a rubber mallet handle to various components, and the clunking sound that is causing the vibration is defiantly more significant when placed on the torque tube.
I'm interested in hearing of similar experiences, professional advice.
-Damn! I tried to some it all up as quick as possible. Took longer than I thought.
P.S. This project has been tough. Hope I'm nearing the end.
Last edited by Ranger; Sep 20, 2006 at 10:43 PM.
Pro
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
From: Vanceboro NC
I give you win
Just think of what COULD have happened when he was following your instructions to rev his car up to 5500 rpm with a busted preasure plate. Just so you think about this all knowing advise your giving to the next poor guy that pm's you with a poor clutch install.
Just think of what COULD have happened when he was following your instructions to rev his car up to 5500 rpm with a busted preasure plate. Just so you think about this all knowing advise your giving to the next poor guy that pm's you with a poor clutch install.
Last edited by willyfastz; Sep 20, 2006 at 10:46 PM.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
From: New Bern NC
Wow! This is getting a little carried away. I'm not upset w/ anyone. Willyfast is a great tech and is not responsible in any way for the current status of the car. If anything he has been patient and helpful in the diagnosis. I also know that Rangers intentions were only good when he advised me on how to diagnose the problem when the pressure plate originally broke.
I trace the rote of the problem back to the original install. Some tech. at another shop didn't torque the pressure plate bolts, which led to a broken pressure plate. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have revved the motor up to 4500 RPMS. That probably didn't help the torque tube, but probably isn't responsible for its complete failure either. I take responsibility for have a bad *** hot rod. I love it and can't wait to getter back on the road.
Ranger, you help allot of people hear and I certainly appreciate you and the others that so freely give info that didn't come so easy, but do take it easy on my buddy William, he is doing a good job for me.
PS- Ranger I hope to meet you some day at a track somewhere. If only I can keep this heap on the road long enough to get a roll cage so I'm not disqualified when I get there. This **** is great. I love it.
I trace the rote of the problem back to the original install. Some tech. at another shop didn't torque the pressure plate bolts, which led to a broken pressure plate. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have revved the motor up to 4500 RPMS. That probably didn't help the torque tube, but probably isn't responsible for its complete failure either. I take responsibility for have a bad *** hot rod. I love it and can't wait to getter back on the road.
Ranger, you help allot of people hear and I certainly appreciate you and the others that so freely give info that didn't come so easy, but do take it easy on my buddy William, he is doing a good job for me.
PS- Ranger I hope to meet you some day at a track somewhere. If only I can keep this heap on the road long enough to get a roll cage so I'm not disqualified when I get there. This **** is great. I love it.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
From: New Bern NC
Put the new torque tube in Saturday, drove the car and the vibration was still there. Took the motor out today and have two to spun rod bearings and one bad crank bearing.
The interesting part of this is that when we took the oil pan off there was a broken off piece of oil dip stick there. The interesting part of that is that the shop that put the clutch in that fail had to work on that dip stick numerous times to get it right. When I got the car back from the clutch install, the dip stick would stick when I tried to pull it out. I had to take it back twice, and they finally shaved it. There was never a problem w/ it sticking prior to the install.
I have know idea what they could have done to break off a piece of dip stick in the motor. What I do know is that between the clutch and the damage caused by the dip stick this **** is costing me a lot of money. The trick now is getting this guy to take some responsibility for this mess.
-What would you do?
The interesting part of this is that when we took the oil pan off there was a broken off piece of oil dip stick there. The interesting part of that is that the shop that put the clutch in that fail had to work on that dip stick numerous times to get it right. When I got the car back from the clutch install, the dip stick would stick when I tried to pull it out. I had to take it back twice, and they finally shaved it. There was never a problem w/ it sticking prior to the install.
I have know idea what they could have done to break off a piece of dip stick in the motor. What I do know is that between the clutch and the damage caused by the dip stick this **** is costing me a lot of money. The trick now is getting this guy to take some responsibility for this mess.
-What would you do?