Catch cans detrimental to performance?
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 19,304
Likes: 85
From: San Diego CA
Catch cans detrimental to performance?
A few years back, a CF member (Yo-El) was one of the first members to install an oil catch can. If I remember correctly, he found that his 1/4-mile times suffered noticably and he subsequently removed the catch can. His times immediately improved and he advised everyone to NOT use the can.
My question is this? Has anyone checked 1/4-mile times before and after installing a catch can? If so, and your times worsened, what did you do? I can imagine that if flow is restricted, performance could suffer, but it's unlikely that anyone knows the flow rate that is necessary for unrestricted performance.
Thoughts, comments, input?
My question is this? Has anyone checked 1/4-mile times before and after installing a catch can? If so, and your times worsened, what did you do? I can imagine that if flow is restricted, performance could suffer, but it's unlikely that anyone knows the flow rate that is necessary for unrestricted performance.
Thoughts, comments, input?
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 0
From: Northern VA
Originally Posted by Dave68
A few years back, a CF member (Yo-El) was one of the first members to install an oil catch can. If I remember correctly, he found that his 1/4-mile times suffered noticably and he subsequently removed the catch can. His times immediately improved and he advised everyone to NOT use the can.
My question is this? Has anyone checked 1/4-mile times before and after installing a catch can? If so, and your times worsened, what did you do? I can imagine that if flow is restricted, performance could suffer, but it's unlikely that anyone knows the flow rate that is necessary for unrestricted performance.
Thoughts, comments, input?
My question is this? Has anyone checked 1/4-mile times before and after installing a catch can? If so, and your times worsened, what did you do? I can imagine that if flow is restricted, performance could suffer, but it's unlikely that anyone knows the flow rate that is necessary for unrestricted performance.
Thoughts, comments, input?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 25,889
Likes: 7
From: Virginia Beach
CI 3-5-6-7-8 Veteran
Originally Posted by hotwheels57
...I think it's a fad...like fuzzy dice...
That's why I have a new elite engineering black catch can on the way.
Furthermore, a properly designed catch can doesn't impede vapor flow at all and the PCV gasses excape fine.
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 220
Likes: 1
From: East Windsor NJ
I installed them this past weekend in both my GTO and my Z. I have not tested the Z yet, but just with spirited driving at both ends of my 50 mile commute I had at least a teaspoon of oil in the cans. Can't tell me it is a fad.
I see no possible way this could hurt performance. The PCV system is a vent for crankcase pressure. It has no bearing on performance that I can see.
I see no possible way this could hurt performance. The PCV system is a vent for crankcase pressure. It has no bearing on performance that I can see.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,558
Likes: 2
From: Cape Coral FL
I think a properly installed catch can will improve performance over an improperly installed one. The PCV is there to vent gases and also provide some vacuum to the crankcase. This vacuum has the effect of sealing the rings better which will give better performance. Additionally, having no oil in the intake means no goes into the combustion chambers to cause your pistons to act like bbq coals. Therefore it reduces the possibility of pre/post ignition which WILL rob power.
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Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 19,304
Likes: 85
From: San Diego CA
Originally Posted by FRCTony
Your kidding right? There is no way that a properly installed catch can could have ANY measurable detrimental effect on performance.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,879
Likes: 3
From: Hobart, WI
Originally Posted by Dave68
A few years back, a CF member (Yo-El) was one of the first members to install an oil catch can. If I remember correctly, he found that his 1/4-mile times suffered noticably and he subsequently removed the catch can. His times immediately improved and he advised everyone to NOT use the can.
My question is this? Has anyone checked 1/4-mile times before and after installing a catch can? If so, and your times worsened, what did you do? I can imagine that if flow is restricted, performance could suffer, but it's unlikely that anyone knows the flow rate that is necessary for unrestricted performance.
Thoughts, comments, input?
My question is this? Has anyone checked 1/4-mile times before and after installing a catch can? If so, and your times worsened, what did you do? I can imagine that if flow is restricted, performance could suffer, but it's unlikely that anyone knows the flow rate that is necessary for unrestricted performance.
Thoughts, comments, input?
I remember that vividly cause after a month or so of that debate I was at the dyno and took the CC out on consecutive runs. The results were within a single HP as I remember. Basically no difference.
I posted that at the time but have not tried to go back and find it.
Drag runs IMHO contain too many varaibles.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 23,682
Likes: 9
From: Flagstaff Az.
catch cans
There have been literally hundreds of members install the cans with no problems. I think the very few instances of poor performance has to do with unrelated problems that happened at the time of install.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,602
Likes: 20
From: Palm City Florida
Originally Posted by Dave68
A few years back, a CF member (Yo-El) was one of the first members to install an oil catch can. If I remember correctly, he found that his 1/4-mile times suffered noticably and he subsequently removed the catch can. His times immediately improved and he advised everyone to NOT use the can.
My question is this? Has anyone checked 1/4-mile times before and after installing a catch can? If so, and your times worsened, what did you do? I can imagine that if flow is restricted, performance could suffer, but it's unlikely that anyone knows the flow rate that is necessary for unrestricted performance.
Thoughts, comments, input?
My question is this? Has anyone checked 1/4-mile times before and after installing a catch can? If so, and your times worsened, what did you do? I can imagine that if flow is restricted, performance could suffer, but it's unlikely that anyone knows the flow rate that is necessary for unrestricted performance.
Thoughts, comments, input?
What was happening is the stone element inside was actually restricting airflow. I was able to actually prove this by running an Autotap and monitoring Fuel Trims during Idle.
With the restrictive element installed the Trims went WAY Negative.. (-8 to -10) which meant the lack of additional air normally coming in from the PCV was gone.. Therefore causing a rich condition and making the PCM pull fuel (going Negative)
After I pulled the element... The trims went back to a normal (-2 or -3)
It was repeatable.. I pulled the filter element as it is not needed to still catch oil.. mine is currently 1/4 full.. I usually get 1/2 full between oil changes...
Not quite sure why there would be a problem at the track..
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 19,304
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From: San Diego CA
What I intend to use is a coalescing filter. This type of filter is specifically designed to trap oil and moisture. They are commonly used to prevent oil and water from entering anything that performs better without it - electronic instruments, pneumatic cylinders, etc. Of course, each of the various sizes of this type of filter has a flow rating. Under-specify and you will restrict flow. You can always take the hammer approach and simply cram in the largest one you can, hoping it is adequately sized, but that's not aways a smart thing to do.
Thus - my question about whether anyone knows the flow rate through the hoses in question.
Thanks for the responses so far.
Thus - my question about whether anyone knows the flow rate through the hoses in question.
Thanks for the responses so far.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,011
Likes: 9
From: Dublin GA
Originally Posted by chuckster
Actually the catch can in question was a MOD... using the Campbell and Hausfeld Compressed Air Filter.
What was happening is the stone element inside was actually restricting airflow. I was able to actually prove this by running an Autotap and monitoring Fuel Trims during Idle.
With the restrictive element installed the Trims went WAY Negative.. (-8 to -10) which meant the lack of additional air normally coming in from the PCV was gone.. Therefore causing a rich condition and making the PCM pull fuel (going Negative)
After I pulled the element... The trims went back to a normal (-2 or -3)
What was happening is the stone element inside was actually restricting airflow. I was able to actually prove this by running an Autotap and monitoring Fuel Trims during Idle.
With the restrictive element installed the Trims went WAY Negative.. (-8 to -10) which meant the lack of additional air normally coming in from the PCV was gone.. Therefore causing a rich condition and making the PCM pull fuel (going Negative)
After I pulled the element... The trims went back to a normal (-2 or -3)
If you're planning on running this mod, couldn't you just adjust the fuel trims at idle to compensate (like you would any other mod?)
I would think that the affects at anything other than idle would be minimal. Once the TB opens, the airflow from the PCV system is insignificant
I left my element in, because I was concerned that once it accumilated enough oil in the bowl, the vacume would simply pull it out of it and into the intake as before
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 220
Likes: 1
From: East Windsor NJ
Originally Posted by chuckster
Actually the catch can in question was a MOD... using the Campbell and Hausfeld Compressed Air Filter.
What was happening is the stone element inside was actually restricting airflow. I was able to actually prove this by running an Autotap and monitoring Fuel Trims during Idle.
With the restrictive element installed the Trims went WAY Negative.. (-8 to -10) which meant the lack of additional air normally coming in from the PCV was gone.. Therefore causing a rich condition and making the PCM pull fuel (going Negative)
After I pulled the element... The trims went back to a normal (-2 or -3)
It was repeatable.. I pulled the filter element as it is not needed to still catch oil.. mine is currently 1/4 full.. I usually get 1/2 full between oil changes...
Not quite sure why there would be a problem at the track..
What was happening is the stone element inside was actually restricting airflow. I was able to actually prove this by running an Autotap and monitoring Fuel Trims during Idle.
With the restrictive element installed the Trims went WAY Negative.. (-8 to -10) which meant the lack of additional air normally coming in from the PCV was gone.. Therefore causing a rich condition and making the PCM pull fuel (going Negative)
After I pulled the element... The trims went back to a normal (-2 or -3)
It was repeatable.. I pulled the filter element as it is not needed to still catch oil.. mine is currently 1/4 full.. I usually get 1/2 full between oil changes...
Not quite sure why there would be a problem at the track..
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 19,304
Likes: 85
From: San Diego CA
What is puzzling is that even the CH filter has a max flow rating. Removing the stone element may raise that rating, but I wonder why the original assembly had insufficient flow. Most coalescing filters start at 20 CFM. That is alot of flow. Perhaps the stone element was faulty from the factory?
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 220
Likes: 1
From: East Windsor NJ
Originally Posted by Dave68
What is puzzling is that even the CH filter has a max flow rating. Removing the stone element may raise that rating, but I wonder why the original assembly had insufficient flow. Most coalescing filters start at 20 CFM. That is alot of flow. Perhaps the stone element was faulty from the factory?
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 19,304
Likes: 85
From: San Diego CA
Good point. The other thing to consider is that the filter in question is probably at the very low end of quality and performance. I will be talking to a high-end manufacturer about low flow/low pressure applications, very soon. Even at the high end of coalescing filters, the cost is still weel below that of the catch cans I've seen.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,879
Likes: 3
From: Hobart, WI
Originally Posted by Dave68
Good point. The other thing to consider is that the filter in question is probably at the very low end of quality and performance. I will be talking to a high-end manufacturer about low flow/low pressure applications, very soon. Even at the high end of coalescing filters, the cost is still weel below that of the catch cans I've seen.
Thanks.
Thanks.