Oil Catch Cans - a More Effective Solution!
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 19,304
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From: San Diego CA
Oil Catch Cans - a More Effective Solution!
Well, after spending more time than I care to admit, I finally came up with a very effective way to remove oil aerosols from the PCV line on my LS1. To those who are curious as to why catch cans are so popular, take a look at my article and please, extract from it what you wish. It represents my two cents worth, so feel free to jab, scrutinize, and query as you see fit.
You can link to the article and relevant drawing by going to:
http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/corvette_c5_corner.htm
It is entitled, PCV Line Oil Removal 101
Dave
You can link to the article and relevant drawing by going to:
http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/corvette_c5_corner.htm
It is entitled, PCV Line Oil Removal 101
Dave
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,955
Likes: 161
From: PNW
Nice write-up, but I had a comment on this section:
Installation location considerations:
Some catch can manufacturers instruct buyers to mount their catch cans directly to cylinder heads or engine blocks. Not only are these locations subjected to high heat, but the mounting brackets supplied with the catch cans are made of metal, usually steel or aluminum. Since steel and aluminum are great conductors of heat, these are NOT good locations. Why is staying away from heat important? The most effective coalescing of vapors into liquids occurs when there is a temperature change (typically, hot-to-cold); this, all coalescing filter manufacturers recommend that their filters be placed in a cooler area than the area containing the source of heat from which the airstream originates. The same holds true for catch cans or true coalescing filters used in automotive applications.
I have the Elite Engineering catch can on my Z06 and was concerned about how hot it might run -- yes, the cooler a catch can runs the more effective it will be condensing oil vapors. After driving many miles I popped the hood and felt the catch can with my hand ... it wasn't very hot at all, in fact I could keep my hand on it indefinitely so I'd estimate it's temperature to be around 100 to 120 deg F. This was with the catch can mounted to the right head. Keep in mind that the mounting bracket is long and black anodized (it radiates heat well), so the heat transfer to the catch can isn't as high as one might think. Now granted, if you were in constant stop and go traffic the can would most likely run hotter, but with the car moving and normal airflow through the engine compartment I don't see any real heat issues with a catch can mounted to the head if the mounting bracket is designed well.
One thing I did noticed too was that the bottom corner of Elite catch can slightly touches one of the heater hoses which probably helps warm it up too. If the can was about 1/2 to 3/4 inch shorter the hose contact could be eliminated and it would probably run even cooler.
Installation location considerations:
Some catch can manufacturers instruct buyers to mount their catch cans directly to cylinder heads or engine blocks. Not only are these locations subjected to high heat, but the mounting brackets supplied with the catch cans are made of metal, usually steel or aluminum. Since steel and aluminum are great conductors of heat, these are NOT good locations. Why is staying away from heat important? The most effective coalescing of vapors into liquids occurs when there is a temperature change (typically, hot-to-cold); this, all coalescing filter manufacturers recommend that their filters be placed in a cooler area than the area containing the source of heat from which the airstream originates. The same holds true for catch cans or true coalescing filters used in automotive applications.
I have the Elite Engineering catch can on my Z06 and was concerned about how hot it might run -- yes, the cooler a catch can runs the more effective it will be condensing oil vapors. After driving many miles I popped the hood and felt the catch can with my hand ... it wasn't very hot at all, in fact I could keep my hand on it indefinitely so I'd estimate it's temperature to be around 100 to 120 deg F. This was with the catch can mounted to the right head. Keep in mind that the mounting bracket is long and black anodized (it radiates heat well), so the heat transfer to the catch can isn't as high as one might think. Now granted, if you were in constant stop and go traffic the can would most likely run hotter, but with the car moving and normal airflow through the engine compartment I don't see any real heat issues with a catch can mounted to the head if the mounting bracket is designed well.
One thing I did noticed too was that the bottom corner of Elite catch can slightly touches one of the heater hoses which probably helps warm it up too. If the can was about 1/2 to 3/4 inch shorter the hose contact could be eliminated and it would probably run even cooler.
Last edited by ZeeOSix; Dec 10, 2006 at 02:53 AM.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 272
Likes: 3
From: South Louisiana
A lot of the Mustang Cobra guys run filter set ups similar to this.
I ran breathers on quite a few and if I were to mess with the wifes I would probablly try it on the LS1 also.
Of course I'm not finished searching on it yet so don't know if any of you have done it or the results yet.
I ran breathers on quite a few and if I were to mess with the wifes I would probablly try it on the LS1 also.
Of course I'm not finished searching on it yet so don't know if any of you have done it or the results yet.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 19,304
Likes: 85
From: San Diego CA
Zee-O,
Remember, your Z06 has open panels in the front fascia, so engine bay air temps will be a bit cooler than those of the average coupe and vert owners. Before I did the CAI mod, even the plastic air bridge was so hot after stop & go driving, that I couldn't keep my hand on it for long. The good thing about aluminum is that it does dissipate heat quickly if it can do so to a cooler area. Unfortunately, if the engine bay is full of stagnant, hot air (headers don't help matters), the catch can is bound to be at the same temperature.
Stampede,
What type of breather did you run?
Remember, your Z06 has open panels in the front fascia, so engine bay air temps will be a bit cooler than those of the average coupe and vert owners. Before I did the CAI mod, even the plastic air bridge was so hot after stop & go driving, that I couldn't keep my hand on it for long. The good thing about aluminum is that it does dissipate heat quickly if it can do so to a cooler area. Unfortunately, if the engine bay is full of stagnant, hot air (headers don't help matters), the catch can is bound to be at the same temperature.
Stampede,
What type of breather did you run?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,955
Likes: 161
From: PNW
Originally Posted by Dave68
Zee-O,
Remember, your Z06 has open panels in the front fascia, so engine bay air temps will be a bit cooler than those of the average coupe and vert owners.
Remember, your Z06 has open panels in the front fascia, so engine bay air temps will be a bit cooler than those of the average coupe and vert owners.
Of course, no matter how good the engine compartment airflow is, if there isn't much or any at all (i.e., lots of stopping in traffic) then they are all going to heat soak the engine compartment.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,955
Likes: 161
From: PNW
Another comment. When you measured the PCV system air flow rates as shown below, were you actually driving the car under load, or just doing it in the garage in neutral?
Flow at 800 rpm: 36 LPM = 1.27 CFM
Flow at 4000 rpm: 37 LPM = 1.31 CFM
The highest PCV system flow rate will be at WOT and high RPM conditions, and will also be determined by how much blow-by is produced in any particular engine. The more blow-by there is the more potential PCV flow rate there will be.
Flow at 800 rpm: 36 LPM = 1.27 CFM
Flow at 4000 rpm: 37 LPM = 1.31 CFM
The highest PCV system flow rate will be at WOT and high RPM conditions, and will also be determined by how much blow-by is produced in any particular engine. The more blow-by there is the more potential PCV flow rate there will be.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 272
Likes: 3
From: South Louisiana
Originally Posted by Dave68
Zee-O,
Stampede,
What type of breather did you run?
Stampede,
What type of breather did you run?
I have also in the past used elbow fittings on the valve covers and hoses to get the breathers away from the motor.
Was gonna try a vented catch can but never got around to it.
Run hoses from both valve covers to the can and the can would have a breather filter on it to vent to atmosphere.
On the race car I run the scavanger type to the headers. Simple but works.
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Racer
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 272
Likes: 3
From: South Louisiana
One other thing Dave.
I have a strong opinion on the PCV system.
It was put there due to emissions and only due to emissions. I believe if not for that we would still have breathers on them like my 66 caprice classic did. lol
As far as the motor, it does nothing but dirty and gum up the intake system and raise AITs.
Theres talk on some boards about sludge build up with breathers.
IMO the oils now a days are so far developed that they combat this, not to mention that even useing synthetic I change it every 3000 miles.
I'm not modding the C5, it will stay bone stock because it is for the wife. And in its case I will do the normal, TB cleaning, seafoam and pull the intake if I have to to clean it every so often. If I were trying to get more HP I would have breathers on it unless someone in the LS1 community can show me why I shouldn't.
But as I said, I'm new to the LS motors and havent finished my research.
Sorry so long, I like threads like this.
Barry
I have a strong opinion on the PCV system.
It was put there due to emissions and only due to emissions. I believe if not for that we would still have breathers on them like my 66 caprice classic did. lol
As far as the motor, it does nothing but dirty and gum up the intake system and raise AITs.
Theres talk on some boards about sludge build up with breathers.
IMO the oils now a days are so far developed that they combat this, not to mention that even useing synthetic I change it every 3000 miles.
I'm not modding the C5, it will stay bone stock because it is for the wife. And in its case I will do the normal, TB cleaning, seafoam and pull the intake if I have to to clean it every so often. If I were trying to get more HP I would have breathers on it unless someone in the LS1 community can show me why I shouldn't.
But as I said, I'm new to the LS motors and havent finished my research.
Sorry so long, I like threads like this.
Barry
Race Director
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 17,710
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From: Phila PA, Bonita Springs FL
All good in black & white & theory..
But in practical real world experience, I have not seen any measurable difference in the amount of vapor condensing in either location you specify..
Has anyone seen a big difference in the amount of oil collected by changing the location of the catch can?
But in practical real world experience, I have not seen any measurable difference in the amount of vapor condensing in either location you specify..
Has anyone seen a big difference in the amount of oil collected by changing the location of the catch can?
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 22,185
Likes: 65
From: NJ
I really cant see how this would be beneficial on anything but a well boosted turbo, supercharged, or sprayed car. For your average street car, even if raced, it amounts to overkill and addresses a non existant problem. That said - It cant hurt.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 23,283
Likes: 906
From: Lake Elsinore, CA
Excellent write-up, Dave. I have been using a standard GReddy catch can along with the Z06 PCV setup on my coupe for years with some success. I mounted it in what you identify as the ideal location in the front bumper area where it is exposed to cool, turbulent fresh air.
A shot of my intake before installing the catch can.
This is oil collected from my setup after only 800 miles of driving.
My catch can location. I replaced the braid-reinforced hose that came with the catch can with fuel line shortly after installing it.
You can see the two black hoses on the bottom right leading from the catch can to the front bumber area.
A shot of my intake before installing the catch can.
This is oil collected from my setup after only 800 miles of driving.
My catch can location. I replaced the braid-reinforced hose that came with the catch can with fuel line shortly after installing it.
You can see the two black hoses on the bottom right leading from the catch can to the front bumber area.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: Freezing in the Midwest. Fort Wayne IN. Global warming my azz.
Cruise-In X Veteran
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
Good write up. Just as a side note. Parker also owns Wilkerson now.
Have for the last couple of years. I actually stopped buying their
regulators and filters due to quality problems not long after they were
bought out. FWI How I know this? I have been in the fluid power industry for over 18 years. I work for PHD Inc.
Edit: lol just checked your profile...I too am a Mfg. Engineer.
Have for the last couple of years. I actually stopped buying their
regulators and filters due to quality problems not long after they were
bought out. FWI How I know this? I have been in the fluid power industry for over 18 years. I work for PHD Inc.
Edit: lol just checked your profile...I too am a Mfg. Engineer.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 19,304
Likes: 85
From: San Diego CA
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Another comment. When you measured the PCV system air flow rates as shown below, were you actually driving the car under load, or just doing it in the garage in neutral?
Flow at 800 rpm: 36 LPM = 1.27 CFM
Flow at 4000 rpm: 37 LPM = 1.31 CFM
The highest PCV system flow rate will be at WOT and high RPM conditions, and will also be determined by how much blow-by is produced in any particular engine. The more blow-by there is the more potential PCV flow rate there will be.
Flow at 800 rpm: 36 LPM = 1.27 CFM
Flow at 4000 rpm: 37 LPM = 1.31 CFM
The highest PCV system flow rate will be at WOT and high RPM conditions, and will also be determined by how much blow-by is produced in any particular engine. The more blow-by there is the more potential PCV flow rate there will be.
You are correct; I did not measure while driving - that would've been fairly tricky! BUT, the filter I used is rated for 8 CFM max flow. This is more than 6 times the flow I saw at 4000 rpm in neutral. Somehow, I doubt that the filter will see anything close to 8 CFM.
Stampede,
Thanks for the info and pics. I think using synthetic oil helps tremendously, but it still can gradually cause issues down the road if allowed to build up as carbon on pistons. Certyainly, what you are doing with your wife's car is a good thing as well.
Ed (Patches),
Thanks for the excellent pics. I bought a right angle drill to mount my filter to that front bumper cross member. Someone mentioned that it is hardened steel, so I may need a carbide drill. Did you have any issues?
CertInsane,
Parker seems to own everything - kinda like AT&T! I have found that some Parker distributors tack on a hefty profit to the Parker line of products. This is why I went with the Watts.
Yo-El,
This is not just theory. It has been well-prove in the compressed air industry. Even your average Physics class in high school covers condensation, temperature change influence, and dew points. Whether the difference is significant over time is another story. Still, engineers tend to be **** at times.
Dave
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,955
Likes: 161
From: PNW
Originally Posted by Dave68
Zee,
You are correct; I did not measure while driving - that would've been fairly tricky! BUT, the filter I used is rated for 8 CFM max flow. This is more than 6 times the flow I saw at 4000 rpm in neutral. Somehow, I doubt that the filter will see anything close to 8 CFM.
Dave
You are correct; I did not measure while driving - that would've been fairly tricky! BUT, the filter I used is rated for 8 CFM max flow. This is more than 6 times the flow I saw at 4000 rpm in neutral. Somehow, I doubt that the filter will see anything close to 8 CFM.
Dave
Obviously, the PCV system flows maximum at WOT at high RPMs. Cars that are used on the track under these conditions are the ones that will show the most oil in the intake system, and hence benefit the most from an oil catch can. I've heard of guys losing more than a quart of oil during a track day, and I bet the majority of that oil was sucked down the intake manifold through the PCV system.
I'd like to hear from someone who has tracked their car with a PCV catch can installed, and how much oil it caught during a track event.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 23,283
Likes: 906
From: Lake Elsinore, CA
Originally Posted by Dave68
Ed (Patches),
Thanks for the excellent pics. I bought a right angle drill to mount my filter to that front bumper cross member. Someone mentioned that it is hardened steel, so I may need a carbide drill. Did you have any issues?
Thanks for the excellent pics. I bought a right angle drill to mount my filter to that front bumper cross member. Someone mentioned that it is hardened steel, so I may need a carbide drill. Did you have any issues?
My catch can is actually mounted with two large strips of industrial-strength Velcro because, when I mounted it, I wasn't sure if I would leave it there permanently. Four years later, it is still mounted there securely with Velcro - stuff is tough!
I have drilled through the frame rails, though, when I mounted my Rocker Rails from A&A the first week I got the car. A standard drill/drill bit went through the steel easily.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 431
Likes: 0
From: North Las Vegas Nevada
Originally Posted by YO-EL
All good in black & white & theory..
But in practical real world experience, I have not seen any measurable difference in the amount of vapor condensing in either location you specify..
Has anyone seen a big difference in the amount of oil collected by changing the location of the catch can?
But in practical real world experience, I have not seen any measurable difference in the amount of vapor condensing in either location you specify..
Has anyone seen a big difference in the amount of oil collected by changing the location of the catch can?