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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 05:47 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Steve@EnglandGreen
..... Sears would be the bottom of the food chain for tq wrenches......
Not necessarily. I have 3 Sears tq. wrenches; 3/8 drive inch pound, 3/8 drive low torque capacity and a 1/2 drive high capacity. All of them have been checked on the calibrator where I work, and are within +/- 1%.
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LoneStarFRC
Ya think?
...it's all about the post count...

Sears would be the bottom of the food chain for tq wrenches
Maybe for a "professional" shop, but for the average guy who does occasional wrenching on his vehicles, a SEARS torque wrench is perfectly fine. I've never broken a bolt and never had a SEARS torque wrench show to be inaccurate.
Lets start a new thread on "What's the best torque wrench for less than $150?" and see what brand is (most) recommended.

Last edited by hotwheels57; Jul 30, 2007 at 12:18 PM.
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 12:56 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by sigma6
If I can get a Snap-on tq wrench I will but where do I go to buy their products?
www.SnapOn.com is the Snap On Catalog website where you can order them. OR, find a close repair shop where you figure the Snap On Truck stops - ask that shop to have the Snap On guy drop one off for you.

Most shops are more than happy to order something off of the Snap On truck for you, cause it is that much less that the Snap On dealer wants them to purchase that month

OR, you can get pretty good deals on Flea-bay for Snap On Torque wrenches - but you might need to have them recalibrated.
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 02:42 PM
  #24  
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76 shouldnt feel like a WHOLE lot on a tq wrench. Sure you had it right?
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 02:52 PM
  #25  
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Doing it the recommended three passes makes good sense too. Helps ensure that the flywheel doesn't get "cocked" ever so slightly and putting a bind on any of the bolts that haven't been tightend down yet.
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 04:50 PM
  #26  
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Sigma 6,
As you have a '98, we can assume there is a good chance the original flywheel could have lead weights added at the factory, to externally final-balance the engine.
I don't know if the post-2000 engines had this done often, but it was common on the '97-2000.
Did you check the flywheel for these weights?
If they were on the original flywheel, and you replace it with a perfectly balanced flywheel/clutch setup, your engine could vibrate unacceptably. I know, I went there with a dealer who pulled and scrapped my flywheel without checking. It took 5 tries and a factory guy with an exotic strobe machine to get my engine back into sorta-ok balance.
If you pull the old flywheel without marking its location (rotation) on the crank, then find lead weights driven into some of the holes, you are screwed!

DG
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 05:15 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by sigma6
Yup, all of you guys are right.

a. I was re-using the old bolts
b. It was a harbor freight tool

Man, you guys are good. Good news is that I was able to get it out with little fuss, using Kragen's bolt remover drill set. Bad news is this'll have to wait a few more days to get the new bolts from GM parts , as well as a torque wrench from Sears. If I can get a Snap-on tq wrench I will but where do I go to buy their products?
Many bolts you will find in/on a motor are a stretch bolt. When you torque these bolts down they actually stretch and want to stretch back to their original length. The problem is if you stretch metal it gets longer and will never go back to its exact length or shape. Ask any body guy that has tried to straighten a frame of a car after a good t-boning.

Basically that stretch acts as a locking type device and is essentially shot after its been used once. It is cheap insurance to replace bolts with new ones on any internal part.

It is also recommended in many circles to put a little motor oil on the threads of the bolts to make it easier to torque to the correct level.
Think about it, if the bolt is dirty or has some crap on it it will increase the resistance to the torque wrench, in all likely hood causing an inaccurate reading, leading to a bolt that wasn't tightened enough, leading to catastrophic failure in cases of say flywheel bolts or head bolts.
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 05:19 PM
  #28  
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It is also recommended in many circles to put a little motor oil on the threads of the bolts to make it easier to torque to the correct level.
Caveat, lubricating the bolt may alter the torque specs. Lubricating with oil will probably not work with a LOCTITE thread lock/sealant.
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 06:21 PM
  #29  
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Are you using my guide? Mine was on a 99 so it should be pretty similar.

I agree that it shouldn't have snapped at 76ft/lbs or even close to that. Those are pretty beefy bolts. Probably just a defective one or a defective torque wrench.

As far as torque wrenches go, Sears are the very worst of the worst. I am but an amateur, and only use my torque wrenches once in a while. I broke 2 Sears 1/2" drive wrenches in 2 years. No, they aren't warrantied. Yes, they are very expensive for how crappy they are. I have some POS Husky from Home Depot now and it's 10x better if that tells you anything. I wouldn't use it for something requiring very close tolerances (engine work for example) but it's fine for lug nuts, suspension parts, etc..

Dope
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 07:33 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Dope
Are you using my guide? Mine was on a 99 so it should be pretty similar.

Dope
Dope, yes I'm using your guide. It has been a great guidance for me, however, there was this area where my install went a dfiferent path. I had to pull my cradle even tho yours didn't have to come out. This is because my 98 has a brake system at the rear end of the differential, as I noticed yours did not. When i started to drop my entire suspension with the cradle on at 1st try, it started to pull down the brake lines in the tunnel down with it. And then I had the half shaft from hell that I had to take a pry bar to, as well as the pilot bearing from hell that you warned us about

Don't ge me wrong, your guide was AWESOME. There's no way you could have the foresight to see that my system was diff.

Originally Posted by The Wrench
Sigma 6,
As you have a '98, we can assume there is a good chance the original flywheel could have lead weights added at the factory, to externally final-balance the engine.
I don't know if the post-2000 engines had this done often, but it was common on the '97-2000.
Did you check the flywheel for these weights?
If they were on the original flywheel, and you replace it with a perfectly balanced flywheel/clutch setup, your engine could vibrate unacceptably. I know, I went there with a dealer who pulled and scrapped my flywheel without checking. It took 5 tries and a factory guy with an exotic strobe machine to get my engine back into sorta-ok balance.
If you pull the old flywheel without marking its location (rotation) on the crank, then find lead weights driven into some of the holes, you are screwed!

DG
Doh, that's not good news. I'll look again to see if I can find any lead weights but if I do find them, I'm screwed? No recourse?
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 07:46 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by hotwheels57
Caveat, lubricating the bolt may alter the torque specs. Lubricating with oil will probably not work with a LOCTITE thread lock/sealant.
Actually not lubricating them with something will adversely alter the torque reading. Loctite when wet actually acts as a lubricant and helps give accurate readings. Loctite only begins to work when it dries.
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 08:08 PM
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Am I the only one that uses German torque specs for everything?

Guten-tight.
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Corvette Monkey
Am I the only one that uses German torque specs for everything?

Guten-tight.
And a Fahrfegnugen to your too Mine Hair.
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 09:33 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by pewter99
some of ya'll need to read all the replies before you post
But.... that takes time!!

Tim Glover
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Old Jul 30, 2007 | 09:35 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by The Wrench
Sigma 6,
As you have a '98, we can assume there is a good chance the original flywheel could have lead weights added at the factory, to externally final-balance the engine.
The Wrench, I wasn't able to spot any lead weights on the flywheel but I took some careful pics. Can you guys help ease my worries? Please tell me there are no weights




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Old Jul 31, 2007 | 03:28 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by sigma6
The Wrench, I wasn't able to spot any lead weights on the flywheel but I took some careful pics. Can you guys help ease my worries? Please tell me there are no weights




I see one at about the "5:30" location in 1st photo (216/3520) and maybe another at about the "4:30" location (little harder to tell from the pic).

Any of the "balancing" holes used around the periphery of the flywheel is a "through" hole and empty if no weight is present. Some balancing holes that have a weight in them will not necessarily be completely "filled", i.e. flush on both sides of the flywheel. Some may be recessed on one side or the other; just depends on how much weight was used in that particular hole.
They can be easily tapped out with a flat punch and hammer if needed. BTW, these should not in any way be confused with the two steel locating pins sticking out. Those are strictly for P/P orientation.
HTH
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Old Jul 31, 2007 | 12:59 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by LoneStarFRC
I see one at about the "5:30" location in 1st photo (216/3520) and maybe another at about the "4:30" location (little harder to tell from the pic).

Any of the "balancing" holes used around the periphery of the flywheel is a "through" hole and empty if no weight is present. Some balancing holes that have a weight in them will not necessarily be completely "filled", i.e. flush on both sides of the flywheel. Some may be recessed on one side or the other; just depends on how much weight was used in that particular hole.
They can be easily tapped out with a flat punch and hammer if needed. BTW, these should not in any way be confused with the two steel locating pins sticking out. Those are strictly for P/P orientation.
HTH
Oh damned, so it *is* weighted? Am I basically screwed? "The Wrench" said that if I didn't have it marked when I pulled the flywheel off then there's no way to get it aligned properly now that it's off the engine.
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Old Jul 31, 2007 | 04:28 PM
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Edit: Sorry, I see we have established it was from Harbor Freight...

Your torque wrench looks eerily similar to my dreaded Harbor Freight torque wrench, which stripped the threads on three or four aluminum bolt holes in my head/cam swap. I went out and bought a new Craftsman wrench, and haven't looked back. I use the old one as a weapon for self-defense now. Maybe your wrench is as goofy and innacurate as mine was.
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Old Jul 31, 2007 | 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kilrb
Edit: Sorry, I see we have established it was from Harbor Freight...

Your torque wrench looks eerily similar to my dreaded Harbor Freight torque wrench, which stripped the threads on three or four aluminum bolt holes in my head/cam swap. I went out and bought a new Craftsman wrench, and haven't looked back. I use the old one as a weapon for self-defense now. Maybe your wrench is as goofy and innacurate as mine was.
Harbor Freight sells a lot on junk tools. Anything of a non-precision nature might be OK as a "keep around the house" for general use, but I would definitely stay from much of anything else. They specialize in offshore mfgs (can you say China, Taiwan, etc?) that use poor quality metals and very poor tolerances in most cases.
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Old Jul 31, 2007 | 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sigma6
Oh damned, so it *is* weighted? Am I basically screwed? "The Wrench" said that if I didn't have it marked when I pulled the flywheel off then there's no way to get it aligned properly now that it's off the engine.
Not necessarily. Take a look at the end of the crank and see if you can see any "witness" marks. These could be something as simple as a slight rust or corrosion pattern(s)/mark(s), that might indicate where the "7th" hole of the flywheel when it was attached. As you can see there are 6 attaching holes used to attach the flywheel and since these holes are all equidistant, the only "oddball" so-to-speak is the "7th" hole.

From what I gather, it would seem that most flywheels get attached to the crank with these "7th" holes aligned with one another. If by chance these "7th" holes were not lined up when originally attached then maybe, just maybe, there might be a witness mark on the crank or flywheel (as they each have a "7th" hole") showing a sign indicating its location when originally assembled. Try looking for the presence of a circular corrosion/dirt pattern for example.


The good thing about witness marks is, the longer any two parts are attached, they greater the likelihood of a witness mark of some sort being present. I don't think the lack of a witness mark necessarily means a problem for you, and for me at least, would seem to indicate a greater likelihood that these "7th" holes were in fact aligned when first assembled. Bear in mind I'm just using the "7th" hole as maybe the easiest example of something to look for. There could be others but I don't see anything obvious in your pics. Caveat: I haven't personally seen or read anything indicating a requirement or policy at the factory that these "7th" holes be lined up during assembly.

If this is helpful then at least you will have a starting point as to the flywheel/crank relationship. If the clutch/pp assembly can only be mounted one way via the locating pins on the flywheel, then you might be able to effectively "re-create" the entire original mounting locations of the entire assembly. Establishing the relationship of the clutch/pp to the flywheel is equally important in re-creating the entire assembly.
As several others have stated here, I agree with using new bolts whether they be factory or ARP.

HTH,
Robert
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