Same here. 
Update: Cleaning the Clutch Reservoir using Rangers method...I doing something wrong?
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From: Granby, MA
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Update: Cleaning the Clutch Reservoir using Rangers method...I doing something wrong?
Ok I have been following rangers instructions to the tee and yet Iam on my 11th change now.....and it always after 1/2 hour or so after sitting goes back to the dark black merky stuff.....I doing something wrong? or like do I just need to keep going?
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2004
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While I agree with Ranger about the importance of keeping the fluid clean, it seems the problems caused by allowing this system to become contaminated may be hard to just flush out via the reservoir top or even via a remote bleeder depending on how long the contamination was left in place.
I installed a remote bleeder along with a new master, slave and clutch a couple of years ago after having a trans problem. I use it monthly in hopes of avoiding any contamination.
stevezfl has shared cutaway pics of his fouled master that show why a system once fouled is not easily cleaned via reservoir top flushing.
Here are a couple of them...
With the Ranger Protocol - "Dillution is the Solution" - that is you remove dirty fluid and add fresh, with the hope that only the fluid is dirty. But if the contamination was left in place for some time it may leave sticky sludge that may not just dilute and be carried back to the reservoir for removal. If left in place longer this sludge seems to attack the seals (and even the corode the metal) causing failure.
I installed a remote bleeder along with a new master, slave and clutch a couple of years ago after having a trans problem. I use it monthly in hopes of avoiding any contamination.
stevezfl has shared cutaway pics of his fouled master that show why a system once fouled is not easily cleaned via reservoir top flushing.
Here are a couple of them...
With the Ranger Protocol - "Dillution is the Solution" - that is you remove dirty fluid and add fresh, with the hope that only the fluid is dirty. But if the contamination was left in place for some time it may leave sticky sludge that may not just dilute and be carried back to the reservoir for removal. If left in place longer this sludge seems to attack the seals (and even the corode the metal) causing failure.
Racer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 330
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From: Milwaukee WI
I had a similar experience, where pumping the pedal like nuts barely changed the fluid color. Driving did though. Taking it around the block twice dirtied it up a little. A week or two later it got a lot darker. I'm wondering if a once weekly change wouldn't be the best way to do this.
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Philadelphia Pa
Same results....
I had a similar experience, where pumping the pedal like nuts barely changed the fluid color. Driving did though. Taking it around the block twice dirtied it up a little. A week or two later it got a lot darker. I'm wondering if a once weekly change wouldn't be the best way to do this.
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Race Director
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From: Lenoir City TN
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
When I bought my Z06 the fluid was black as coal, took 25 changes and it remains clear as new after 500 miles, however the last 5 changes took longer and longer to get dirty.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Atlanta metro Ga.
GM released a TSB about this very issue (seal material making the fluid black), they should know, they designed and built the car.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: long Island NY
I could be wrong or just never had a problem yet but I would have to assume that GM did not expect people change fluid this often or at all for that matter.With all the cars and trucks that I have owned I never changed this fluid or thought I had to.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: Chino Ca.
The black discoloration isn't causing harm, you are for the most part wasting time and effort here.
Le Mans Master
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From: Winchester TN
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'11
Hi folks -
I don't think anyone has said that the black discoloration is due to burning or otherwise.
I contend that it is not the black color that is causing the pedal to the floor clutch issue that is pervasive in C5's.
It is my contention that the DOT3 fluid in the factory fill is not up to the task of the high heat associated with the integral throwout/slave setup in the C5.
It is only after high rpm shifts (may as well say redline shifts) that my clutch would exhibit the mushy pedal to the floor and not return to full pedal height.
After I started using DOT4 and changed out the fluid several times, I have ELIMINATED the problem on my car. ELIMINATED IT.
So - naysayers notwithstanding, color of the fluid be damned, changing to DOT4 and keeping the fluid fresh will solve the mushy pedal syndrome.
Believe what you want.
best regards -
mqqn
I don't think anyone has said that the black discoloration is due to burning or otherwise.
I contend that it is not the black color that is causing the pedal to the floor clutch issue that is pervasive in C5's.
It is my contention that the DOT3 fluid in the factory fill is not up to the task of the high heat associated with the integral throwout/slave setup in the C5.
It is only after high rpm shifts (may as well say redline shifts) that my clutch would exhibit the mushy pedal to the floor and not return to full pedal height.
After I started using DOT4 and changed out the fluid several times, I have ELIMINATED the problem on my car. ELIMINATED IT.
So - naysayers notwithstanding, color of the fluid be damned, changing to DOT4 and keeping the fluid fresh will solve the mushy pedal syndrome.
Believe what you want.
best regards -
mqqn
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2004
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I contend that the problem is the material that the seals in the master and slave are made of. It breaks down in brake fluid, which is a known solvent. Solvent dissolves rubber. Add the high heat caused by high RPM shifts and moisture due to the fluid being hygroscopic and the seals break down even quicker.
The seals appear to be made of butyl rubber. If they were made of something more compatible with solvent like viton they would not break down as easy.
Like you said...Believe what you want. Ha The proof is in the pics...
The seals appear to be made of butyl rubber. If they were made of something more compatible with solvent like viton they would not break down as easy.
Like you said...Believe what you want. Ha The proof is in the pics...
Le Mans Master
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From: Winchester TN
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'11
I contend that the problem is the material that the seals in the master and slave are made of. It breaks down in brake fluid, which is a known solvent. Solvent dissolves rubber. Add the high heat caused by high RPM shifts and moisture due to the fluid being hygroscopic and the seals break down even quicker.
The seals appear to be made of butyl rubber. If they were made of something more compatible with solvent like viton they would not break down as easy.
Like you said...Believe what you want. Ha The proof is in the pics...
The seals appear to be made of butyl rubber. If they were made of something more compatible with solvent like viton they would not break down as easy.
Like you said...Believe what you want. Ha The proof is in the pics...
I think we are talking two issues - you are contending that the fluid leads to premature master failure, and I contend that the DOT3 fluid gets cooked and causes the "pedal stuck to the floor" syndrome.
I just replaced a clutch on a 1998 coupe with almost 70k miles on it.
The fluid was as black as any I have seen, but since the fellow never raced the car (and hence never did redline shifts) he never experienced the mushy pedal.
His clutch worked just fine for his needs without ever having to change the fluid. The master cylinder was operating fine with black goo in the reservoir.
The failing component was the slave cylinder which started leaking.
We replaced the master, slave and all the rest, but my point is that the clutch still worked just fine under normal conditions.
Either way, it is semantics, as if you keep the fluid fresh, you will keep it clean, and if you keep it clean, you will keep it fresh.
Bottom line, it is good maintenance to change this fluid out on a somewhat regular basis to keep the clutch functioning properly.
best regards -
mqqn
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2004
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Dillution is not always the solution...
Andy, I think we sort of agree on some things. But...
Quote - His clutch worked just fine for his needs without ever having to change the fluid. The master cylinder was operating fine with black goo in the reservoir.
The failing component was the slave cylinder which started leaking.
We replaced the master, slave and all the rest, but my point is that the clutch still worked just fine under normal conditions.
If the clutch leaks at the slave - the system will either have to be filled or run dry and quit working. How far can/would you drive a car with a clutch fluid leak? Also,every time he refilled the system he was both bleeding and changing the fluid out from the bottom, much like a remote bleeder. So saying the clutch worked fine without ever changing his fluid is not quite concise. The car will still go but the system was broken (leaking) and required repair.
What was the cause of the slave seal leak. I think the fluid and the seal reacted - to the solvent nature of the fluid, the heat, pressure and friction, along with lack of fluid change, over time to dissolve the seal. Like I said before clutch fluid is solvent and dissolves rubber.
The point of my first post with Steves pics is to make clear that a point of no return can be reached - where you can't remove the contaminants via the reservoir. That is when the seals have dissolved so far that they fail. Failure can come in many ways. The master can stop moving fluid, the slave can stop moving fluid, and the slave can leak out.
So the Ranger Protocol = "Dillution is the Solution" will not always work. I say always install a remote bleeder when you put in a new clutch and if you drive the car hard - use the remote bleeder monthly.
(I know - way too much info)
Thanks for the friendly disscusion,
Doug
Quote - His clutch worked just fine for his needs without ever having to change the fluid. The master cylinder was operating fine with black goo in the reservoir.
The failing component was the slave cylinder which started leaking.
We replaced the master, slave and all the rest, but my point is that the clutch still worked just fine under normal conditions.
If the clutch leaks at the slave - the system will either have to be filled or run dry and quit working. How far can/would you drive a car with a clutch fluid leak? Also,every time he refilled the system he was both bleeding and changing the fluid out from the bottom, much like a remote bleeder. So saying the clutch worked fine without ever changing his fluid is not quite concise. The car will still go but the system was broken (leaking) and required repair.
What was the cause of the slave seal leak. I think the fluid and the seal reacted - to the solvent nature of the fluid, the heat, pressure and friction, along with lack of fluid change, over time to dissolve the seal. Like I said before clutch fluid is solvent and dissolves rubber.
The point of my first post with Steves pics is to make clear that a point of no return can be reached - where you can't remove the contaminants via the reservoir. That is when the seals have dissolved so far that they fail. Failure can come in many ways. The master can stop moving fluid, the slave can stop moving fluid, and the slave can leak out.
So the Ranger Protocol = "Dillution is the Solution" will not always work. I say always install a remote bleeder when you put in a new clutch and if you drive the car hard - use the remote bleeder monthly.
(I know - way too much info)
Thanks for the friendly disscusion,
Doug
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,574
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From: Fredericton NB
...That's because the black discoloration is due to the seals, NOT "burnt" or otherwise contaminated fluid, despite certain CF member claims. The black discoloration isn't causing harm, you are for the most part wasting time and effort here.
GM released a TSB about this very issue (seal material making the fluid black), they should know, they designed and built the car.
GM released a TSB about this very issue (seal material making the fluid black), they should know, they designed and built the car.
And I mean it feels absolutely different !
No disrespect here....Im mechanically inept and just curious...
Le Mans Master
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From: Winchester TN
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'11
Hi Doug -
I agree lol.....
Actually - I worded that poorly - the master cylinder was still working but the slave cylinder was letting it down, It was putting fluid on the clutch and then just did the death-dump.
We replaced the whole shebang (glad we did now after seeing your pictures) but the master was still operating (but for how long ??)
I agree - I tried to get the fellow (member Zuti here) to buy a remote bleeder. Bleeding that doggone thing was probably the hardest part of the clutch job without a rem. bleeder.
Getting the new master in was no easy job either.
best regards -
mqqn
I agree lol.....
Actually - I worded that poorly - the master cylinder was still working but the slave cylinder was letting it down, It was putting fluid on the clutch and then just did the death-dump.
We replaced the whole shebang (glad we did now after seeing your pictures) but the master was still operating (but for how long ??)
I agree - I tried to get the fellow (member Zuti here) to buy a remote bleeder. Bleeding that doggone thing was probably the hardest part of the clutch job without a rem. bleeder.
Getting the new master in was no easy job either.
best regards -
mqqn