Every since I had my clutch replaced, Ive had some intermitant no starting issues because of the clutch safety switch not engaging. Actually it's the starter that doesnt do it's job. I hear a click, but starts does not turn. I dont think it's the starter either

Sometimes, more when the weather is hot, But it did it last week when it was 45 degrees outside, when I took the car for a drive. It seems like the neutral system switch doesnt engage. It doesnt do it to often, but often enough to start pissing me off.

When it acts up, I have to hold the key to start, and press the clutch pedal in and out several times before the circuit is complete and the starter engages.

I have thought about replacing the little depressing button that makes contact on the fire wall behind the clutch pedal, but im not sure if that's the problem because it's not consistant. And, im not sure how its attached to the fire wall to replace.

It's almost like a ground, but I dont even think its that. How many safety feature are involved with the start up clutch depression, and where are they located. Pictures please.

Thanks
Phil

Im open for suggestions.

 

I don't have any pictures but the clutch switch but the hardest part of removing it is squeezing your body between the seat and dash; I believe you only have to remove two nuts and one electrical plug. Once you remove the switch and pop off the plastic housing you can clean the contact points with an eraser. However, I had the exact same problem as your are having last Fall and Bill Curlee our resident electric guru kept telling me it was the starter. I wish I would have listened to him sooner because that is exactly what was causing the problem.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out

 

I trust Bill, but Id say the only reaon I wouldnt think it was the starter is because it did not ever happen, then started to happen within a couple of drives after the clutch replacment. The starter has about 22000 miles on it, and was replaced within 1000 miles of the car being new back in 2000.

The once in a while when it happens, I do hear a click ( not dead battery click click click) when it happens, but like a circuit between the igntion key and the starter isnt making contact.

to give this a referance point, It's been happening for about a year now, and has happened maybe ten times.

It is a little tight for me under the steering housing. I found that out when the CLB went (I which Bill helped me through)

 

I had the same click which is why I didn't think it was the starter too. Brian (Cobra4B) helped me remove and clean the clutch switch but the problem still persisted. However, my intermittent starter problem occurred more frequently than yours and I had about 46K on the odom.

 

IF you are hearing a clicking sound, have you checked the battery voltage to see if you have enough voltage to engage the starter solenoid? IF you have a full 12 volts, you could just have a weak solenoid, and it would be worse if the engine was hot. Years ago when I had a 77 Corvette, GM even supplied a weaker solenoid spring to make it easier for the solenoid to engage when hot.
The problem these days is, you may not be able to buy just a solenoid without replacing the whole starter assembly.

 

Rarely do I have a full 12 volts.
My car normally sits at 11.6 ish prior to a start, and jumps up to 13.5 to14.1ish when the car is running.

If the battery was weak, it would do it more when I didnt start the car for a week or two which is normal for me to let it sit for that long.

 

Had the same intermittant typ problem years ago. In my case, it was the starter itself, but if you have a multimeter, and basic electircal knowledge, I can give you a systematic way to troubleshoot it..but the trick is, you can only effectively troubleshoot this sort of problem when it's actually occuring (not cranking).

The starting circuit is relatively simple. It starts with your ignition switch...when you turn the key to crank, it sends +12v to the clutch switch via a purple wire. When the clutch pedal is depressed, it closes a connection to the yellow wire coming off the clutch switch, which runs directly to the TDR (Theft Deterrent Relay). This relay is located just above the BCM in the pass side footwell. So, the yellow wire coming from the switch provides +12v to energize this relay. The BCM is what supplies the ground to the relay (yellow/black wire), as both +12v and ground are needed for the relay to energize and operate. The BCM supplies the ground signal when the resistor pellet on the key is successfully read.
The other two wires on the TDR, are red and purple colored. The red wire is +12v coming straight from the fusebox. The purple wire runs directly to the starter. When the TDR is energized, it should click, and close the connection between the red and purple wires....this sends 12v to the starter, and it should then run and turn the engine over.


The easiest way to troubleshoot this, is by going backwards in the entire circuit. Start with the purple wire at the TDR. Next time the car does not start, grab your voltmeter, and check that purple wire for 12v. (you may need a helper to push the pedal down and turn the key). If you get 12v on that purple wire, and the car does NOT turn over, your starter is junk, or the connection of that purple wire at the starter is loose or dirty.

If you do NOT see +12 on the purple wire during an attempted start, then you need to start backtracking. Does the TDR click or seem to energize? If yes, but still nothing on the purple wire, replace the relay, the internal contacts are probably shot.

If nothing happens at the relay, then next check the two yellow wires. Check the solid yellow wire for +12v during an attempted start. If no, then it's down to the clutch or ignition switch. You can test the clutch switch with a continuity tester (ohms). With the clutch pedal up, you should have no continuity, with it depressed, it should go to 0 ohms (or close). If this is occuring, the pedal switch is probably fine. The ignition switch would be the only other item. To test that, during an attempted start, test the purple wire at the clutch switch for 12v (clutch can be up or down for this test, no matter). If you do not get 12v there, it's likely your ign switch is bad.

Now finally, going back to the TDR elay...the yellow/black wire from the BCM is a switched ground wire. If you saw 12v on the yellow wire earlier at the relay, but the relay did not click or energize, you need to see if the BCM is inhibiting the start. Using the continuity test, probe the yellow/black wire, and test for continuity to a ground ground source. The metal BCM case is NOT ground. I think the seat mounting bolts are...but test them to be sure. If you get no continuity to ground (0 ohms) on the yellow/black wire during an attempted start, this means the BCM is not letting it happen. Clean your key pellet, or try another key if you have one. It's also possible the pellet contacts in the ign switch are bad too.


Here's the ful schematic of the starting system (basically everything I already described):




And the location of the TDR:






Hope that helps...

 

11.6 volts is to low for a battery. Charge it and/or load test it.

A 12-volt battery will measure at about 12.9 volts when it’s fully charged and about 11.4 volts when it is fully discharged.

I am not saying this is your problem, but it could be. Measure voltage while cranking, is it below 8.5 volts? Do you lose your memory settings (e.g. mileage) on your DIC after starting? If so, your battery is bad (or needs charged).

 

granted, Ive never checked the battery while fully charged, but Ive check after it's been sitting just to see what it is, and then the car starts. Normally it hangs around the upper 11s.

I bought this battery ( GM OEM) last year, and just like the last OEM battery, the car has a hard time start if I let it sit for more than three weeks ( which is common for the winter )

Honestly I dont think it's the battery.

Y2K you gave me what I was looking for. Ill print it out, and wait for the next time it happens ( hopefully at the house)

I do hear clicking at the TDR when it doesnt start.

 

If that's the case, the next time it happens, try this...

When you press the clutch and turn the key, let the clutch out and just pump the clutch pedal in and out. If the clicking continues each time you depress the pedal, then you can be assured your pedal switch is functioning, and also that the TDR is being energized too. And better still, you just ruled out everything but the relay and the starter itself.

Just a visual examination of the relay might give you a clue too. I know Bill Curlee had found his very corroded as obviously at some point it saw some water intrusion. Even if yours looks fine and clean, a good first step might be replacing it. I seem to recall it being about a $30 part at the dealer.

Beyond that, once you're positive the relay is working, check the voltage at the purple wire coming off it...if you see 12v there, it sure looks like you'll buying another starter.

 

By your explaintin, it sound like the relay or the starter.

The relay is where the purple wire is by the BCM ?

Orginially I thought it was the clutch switch because it could have got banged around when the Master cylinder for the clutch was removed and replaced a couple times

 

I will be in Waterford this Wed. if you need some help removing your cluch switch I will b glad to help but I really don't think that is the cause of your problem.

 

Thanks for the offer storm. I dont use the car to much, and the problem doesnt happen to much, but it's something that needs to be fixed. Im moving to Tampa in the month ( without the car first ) and if it glitches while im still living in NOVA, ill try to hit it was the voltage meter. If It doesnt and the car makes it to Tampa in May, Ill fix it after the move.

I have enough information now to try a couple fixes if it doesnt start in the next 31 days when im due to move.