I'm just giving a for instance . The 4 liter motor doesn't require developement or r&d . It's here and finished and it won't cost 80 g's . I'm ready for a hp boost that I dont have to buy from dodge, and better quality control . Jeez people let's get what I'm saying straight :D

 

:cheers: You better believe it. And as far as voicing your opinion, I'm with you. I've voiced my opinions about the problems that I've had with my vette and GM gave me an extra 3 years on th BTB warranty? Why? Cause I complained, thats why!!! Complaining works.

So for all the ones who are content and wish to remain quiet about the C5 problems, you deserve what you get. And as far as improving the vette performance as the poster suggests, I'd ask that those same "quiet ones" not celebrate with us the day we get it.

 

Like i said I'd like to voice our concerns in a unified manner . Everyone who feels his or her needs are important enough to be heard please speak up . I want to get a list and perhaps send a kind of wish list to gm . I mean shouldn't the consumer play a role in the product that is slated for them to buy . Every body with a concern or concerns speak up and leave your email address . Then maybe we can work on a way to get all the concerns together and on their way to gm's ear . Let me tell you . We have a very powerful venue and we just need to flex a little to let our voice be heard . :cheers:

 

What needs to happen is someone with the same mentality that produced the Viper over at Dodge needs to take the reigns at GM.

The "Build it just cause it's too damn cool not to do so" though process.

 

We got that person who spear headed the viper in charge right now BOB LUTZ . We just need to get our desires to his ear .

 

Whoever wants change just go here and sign away . Leave comments if you'd like. :cheers:
http://www.petitiononline.com/c53d/petition.html


[Modified by vic451, 4:33 PM 11/29/2001]

 

Well my view point comes from a trouble free ride except for the rocking seat. Yep i did the CL bypass but bottom line is the car has been trouble free and it goes like hell. Sure I want a better sound system and softer tires and all the rest but I paid all I wanted to pay for a sports car. HOw can soooo many people be dissatified with their ride when most of the issues have been know for several years now. BMW has oil problems and tons of other problems too. If any "thing" in this world brings you grief, get rid of it. This shi_ is not life or death so lighten up a bit. GM knows what is wrong with their products but on most issues and like most corporations, they will not admit it for all kinds of reason. Not right but not a big surprise. I have never bought anything regardless of the price that was perfect or even anywhere close to perfect. I like my ride. Do not like yours, sell and wait for GM to fix what you do not like or buy another make of car. The old saying that life is to short may sound like bullpoopie but it really is as i am reminded almost monthly when someone close to me passes away. :cheers: :cool: :smash: :seeya :seeya :seeya

 

If people just sat on their butt when they had a problem we'd still be an english colony. I don't want to ditch the vette i wanna make it better , and it's not a waste of anyones time to work for improvement . :smash:

 

Oh you mean build a car without a top and A/C. Yeah that takes guts... :rolleyes: Want a Viper? You can buy a used one in the 40K range...exactly what you paid for your BRAND NEW C5 with A/C and a top.

 

I get what you are saying...you want import performance, which is slower except for the really expensive cars. I don't want an unmodifiable vehicle or one that requires buying 4 cams for an upgrade in horsepower. I fyouwould modify your car for performance or actually race it on a regular basis, you might appreciate what the corvette offers for less than 50K.

Tony

 

Look NILLA . If you want to be hostile do so elsewhere :seeya . I'm striving to make something I LOVE better :chevy . Corvettes are in my blood and i'm determinded to get these issues addressed . Thank you :smash:

 

Who's being hostile? I'm voicing my opinion. You came in here with some off the wall idea, having no experience or real data about what you are talking, ie 4.0 litre motor, and I'm simply grilling you on it. Can't take the heat, don't try to get the public to side with you. Let's face it, if these gadgets were the greatest things since sliced bread, they'd already be implemented in EVERY sports car and heavy sedan.

Tony
Defender of the Corvette Free World. :)

 

Look I'm not gonna argue with you , so you tell me what experience and real data do you have . Flow charts , cost estimates ? You have as much info as me(do you have the auto week I read it from :lol: ) and i don't need to be "grilled " as you put it . I don't feel stupid and if you have facts to present here to prove your end do so . Otherwise nilla wafer please let it be .


:lol:





[Modified by vic451, 6:42 PM 11/29/2001]

 

Just a few thoughts on this quaility issue.
Is there a better looking sports car out there?
Is GM doleing out HP? A recent artilcle in Corvette Quarterly discussed the finding of a way to eliminate pups. This allowed the use of a different cam producing higher HP. Some engineer had to work under a budget to come up with that idea. It's not like the technologie was already there.
Interior: I like the interior. I think it is the best interior I have ever had in a car. I like the lay out. It is business like without a lot of unneccessary glitzy wood and metal. I can operate the controls while driving without trying to find some tiny little button to operate the heater or radio.
Radio: the Bose system is fine. I have a load exhaust on my car and a 6spd. I don't even listen to the radio very much. But when I do, it sounds pretty good.
Engine: You have the most effecient engine you could ask for. Fewest moving parts. You can work on it yourself under a shade tree and it is fast right out of the box. You can make just about all the horsepower you want without driving everybody elses insurance rates throught the roof. It is fuel efficient. Gas prices and insurance rates killed the muscel car era of the 70,s
Paint: My metallic silver paint is better on my vette that my MB. No body in my club has had an issue with paint that I know of. Painting is going to be a tough issue in the future with the EPA coming down on the automotive paint industry. 85% if what is in that paint cannister goes into the atmosphere. That isn't going to last much longer. That means experimenting with new techniques and of course....some of them won't work. And you find that out after you have had your car for a year or two.
Resale value: If I buy a used E320, probably somebody drove it like a family sedan. If I buy a used vette, probably somebody drove the living crap out of it like I do mine.
Oil consumption: about a quart and a half every 3000 miles of hard driving. No big deal
Fit and finish: Could be better, but if you want a light composite body, you are going to have to live with some demensional instability.
Dealer Service: Sucks
Enjoy the ride.
Mash

 

No problem Dic451...how much does the 4.0 liter motor cost to make compared to the Ls1? What are it's cafe ratings? Since you are in the know....

Glad you brought it up...my job entailed costs for new products. A new PC chassis required new tools...you'd be surprised at what tools for PC chassis cost. 50K for ony 200K units produced and then it needs to be reworked to last another 200K... Any more questions?

Do your homework please...

:)


[Modified by Nilla Ice, 12:07 AM 11/30/2001]

 

vic451
Your comments about poor quality for the money is right on.
My Mercedes C Class cost less than a C5 and there is no comparison in quality.
But the biggest screw-up within GM is the Chevrolet dealerships!!!
GM doesn't care about whether the customer gets good service or not.....once the money is paid they forget about you.
There are a few good dealership but way too few for what Corvette owners must pay. :cry

 

Alright , I really don't see how you building computers has anything to do with the cost of making cars :crazy: I do believe the manufacturing process is way different in each . Also if you want facts here ya go .The indy 4 liter is and aurora based engine . It shares most of it's components with the production engine . The price of irl engines are dictated by irl and are set at 86,000 . The 4 liter is built to run on methanol which is much more expensive to engineer due to the heat and the corrosive nature to engine parts . Also if you HAD the autoweek in question you would notice that the opel tuned 4 liter has a 7250 red line whereas the irl engine has a 10,000 rpm redline .To put in perspective the difference between a 10,000 rpm redline and a 7250 redine , the irl engine has 32 titanium valves and the engine completes it's 4 cycles in 12/1000 's of a second for eache cylinder . It is needless to say that a consumer engine is unfathomably more simple to design and along with that comes mucho less dinero. From my research i have deduced that with the engine programing already done by opel . For the most part you have all off the shelf auroura parts in the beast . Only it's tuned up .Also in indy form it makes a hundred more horsepower.I have included a detailed comparo between the two engines .

regular oldsmobile auroura - Indy Olds
Displacement 4.0 liters (244ci) - 3.5 liters (214ci)
Horsepower 250hp @ 5,600 rpm - 650 hp @ 10,700 rpm
Fuel Regular unleaded gasoline - Methanol
Redline 6,400 rpm - 10,700 rpm (per IRL rules)
Price $34,975 MSRP (includes 2001 Aurora) - $88,000 (IRL specified)
Compression Ratio 10.3:1 - 15:1
Bore Diameter 87mm (3.42") - 93mm (3.66")

Crankshaft Stroke 84mm (3.31") - 64.4mm (2.53")

Deck Height 8.84" - 8.1"

"V" Angle 90 degrees - 90 degrees

Cylinder Bore Spacing 102mm - 102mm

Valvetrain Dual overhead cams - Dual overhead cams

valves per Cylinder 4 - 4

Camshaft Drive Chain - Chain

Cylinder Case Material Aluminum - Aluminum

Cylinder Liners "Dry" iron - "Dry" iron

Cylinder Head Material Aluminum - Aluminum

Crankshaft Design 90 Degrees - 180 degrees (optional)

Fuel System Sequential EFI - Sequential EFI

Engine Controller Delphi - Delphi

Throttle System Throttle Body - Individual Runner

Lubrication System Wet Sump - Dry Sump

http://www.teamxtreme-irl.com/car.ht...%20Regulations http://www.indyracing.com/press/1999...ra-111699.html http://www.oldsmobilemotorsports.com...asp?article=38 http://www.oldsmobilemotorsports.com/news.asp?article=2




[Modified by vic451, 9:36 AM 11/30/2001]

 

vic451,

I understand where you're coming from. However, a 4.0L has ZERO LINEAGE within the Corvette line. I feel the C6 is going to have a displacement of either 5.7L or 6.0L and I think the VAST majority would prefer it that way.

Another thing, I wouldn't stress out too awful much about how cool the C6 is going to be. If the VAST IMPROVEMENT from the C4 to C5 is any indication, it's going to be a VERY, VERY sweet ride. I don't think Dave Hill and the gang would have it any other way. All of that said, the aforementioned people still have to work within the constraints and red tape of the monolithic GM organization. Nonetheless, I think all of GM understands the signifigance of the Corvette as it is now the best overall cars in GM's lineup in both quality, performance, and even reliability used under somewhat normal conditions. I doubt any high-end sports car would have held up NEARLY perfectly under the abuse that I've put mine under in the last 18k miles. I've taken care of it, but run it hard every chance I get both on and off the track. :D Don't sweat the small stuff, Vic.

The market is going to dictate how far GM will have to go with the C6 to remain competitive and if you haven't seen the resurgence of the sports car both here and abroad (350Z, RX8, new Supra, Porsche 911 V8!, etc.) then we're all in for a rude awakening. 400hp is going to soon be the MINIMUM that a 'true' sports car is going to need to have. I love it!! And to think growing up and being in love with cars, I was fearful of having to drive a 50hp electric car when I graduated from school. :cheers: :cheers:

 

There are fundamental engineering limitations that at being missed here. Horsepower potential is a function of displacement X RPM, period. More valves & overhead cams are a means to get there but with a trade off in size, weight and complexity. If we look at the real world of production engines there is a common thread.

Ferrari 360 3.6L @ 8500 RPM 395HP; 275TQ @ 4750RPM
3.6*8500/2=x/395 = 38.7liters/HP of air in.

Aston Martin DB7 5.9L (V12) @ 6000RPM 414HP;398TQ @ 5000RPM
5.9*6000/2=x/414 = 42.7liters/HP of air in.

BMW Z8 4.9L @ 6600 RPM 400HP;369TQ @ 3800RPM
4.9*6600/2=x/400 = 40.4liters/HP of air in.

Z06 5.7L @ 6000RPM 405HP; 400Tq @ 4800RPM
5.7*6000/2=x/400 = 42.7liters/HP of air in.

I used three of worlds most expensive sports cars that average around $150k. Money should be of little object when it comes to building the best engines they can. The formula is the engine liter displacement; times the RPM at the HP is rated at; over 2 (4cycle engine) all divide by the rated maximum HP. The result will come in around 40 liters of air pumping potential to make one HP. Why are they all about the same? The practical physical design limits of production engine’s volumetric and thermodynamic efficiencies. There is not magic. Replace the LS1/LS6 with a 4L engine and you need to spin it at 8000RPM or more the just maintain the 400 HP level. You will lose about 100 pound feet of max. torque in the bargain. You will have added weight, complexity and expense to the Corvette design and to what end ? A bit of a Ferrari engine wail ? I don’t think so.




[Modified by Terry Humiston, 2:25 PM 11/30/2001]

 

what is your problem . I quote facts and numbers and you quote useless info. The 4 liter that opel used creates 550 hp and 450 tq while spinning to a modest 7250 rpm . No where did i state that 8000 plus rpm . Geez people ,one person says give me facts, i give facts here's a quote from the mag . Argue with that :

"autoweek "Lordy! Small design and casting changes to convert from methanol to gasoline (unleaded pump gas) were made with great efficiency. The results are 440 hp at 6500 rpm and 317 lb-ft of torque at 4800. The engine is amazingly docile at low speeds, though it does have this great “air popper” idle sound. Four-valve engines are known to need air to make revs and horsepower. The X-Treme’s early problem was that it had too much power to make it driveable by most Russian automotive journalists, so the engineers reduced 50 percent of the air intake. This meant an immediate loss of 100 horsepower as installed for the press drive. "
here's the url : http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content...._code=04956405

Hmmm let's think when does the z06's power peak . Oh yeah it peaks right around there . Must be magical and imposible :crazy: