AFR 205 Heads Vs. Patriot Heads
06-18-2008, 03:11 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
I was comparing AFR powered cars to Cartek powered cars at E-town...not from other parts of the country. Same track, same day. No DA argument needed.
Not discrediting AFR heads. Maybe it was the insallers, or maybe the fact that they were pieced together and not a perfect setup, or maybe it was the tuner. Who knows.
Not discrediting AFR heads. Maybe it was the insallers, or maybe the fact that they were pieced together and not a perfect setup, or maybe it was the tuner. Who knows.
Last edited by nickolbag; 06-18-2008 at 03:15 PM.
06-18-2008, 03:34 PM
#22
Former Vendor
I was comparing AFR powered cars to Cartek powered cars at E-town...not from other parts of the country. Same track, same day. No DA argument needed.
Not discrediting AFR heads. Maybe it was the insallers, or maybe the fact that they were pieced together and not a perfect setup, or maybe it was the tuner. Who knows.
Not discrediting AFR heads. Maybe it was the insallers, or maybe the fact that they were pieced together and not a perfect setup, or maybe it was the tuner. Who knows.
I guess long story short is a guy that just rolls to the track with AFR heads doesn't mean he has dialed in every last detail to be a track hero. He may have stock gears, a 224 cam and an LS6 intake. The combinations have to be similar to actually compare cylinder heads if that's the main objective of this particular thread and honestly if we were looking at track results I would be most interested in trap speed and weight to compare how much power a particular combo is producing....ET is too dependent on the cars set-up, available traction, and the drivers ability.
Cheers,
Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 06-18-2008 at 05:46 PM.
06-19-2008, 05:34 PM
#24
Le Mans Master
We don't all go agressive. Many of us keep street manners a top priority and even drive are cars to and from the track, in my case up to 80 miles each way. Dosn't stop me from putting up good numbers. 
06-22-2008, 03:58 PM
#26
Drifting
Track times are dependent on a zillion variables....driver....the car's suspension, tires, and set-up (is it optimized to attack the 1320), but the largest variable people seem to brainfart on is the actual track and its elevation.
CarTek has the luxury of being extremely close to one of the fastest tracks in the country (a few of them actually) and they typically see D/A's in the fall and winter months approaching and occasionally exceeding negative 2000 feet (an N/A combo is essentially supercharged at that point). My original 346 combo with a very optimized 224 small cam package made 475-480 RWHP on numerous dyno's here in southern CA and with typical D/A's in the positive 1000-2000 range (that's at some of the better local tracks) that power in a 3425 lb vehicle was worth low elevens at 124 MPH. Honestly if I launched the car with absolute disregard to the 100 mile ride home (which I would have preferred not being on the back of a flatbed for), the car would have easily gone in the high tens (were talking conservative 1.7's on the 60 foot times to turn an 11.20 or so).
Whats my point....take that same car and trailer it to Englishtown NJ on any given clear night in December and it would have went 10.60's at 128 MPH....maybe better on a negative 2000 or better type of evening.
Unfortunately dyno's have their share of variables as well (brand, type, proper calibration) but at the least they try to account for the biggest variable of all which is weather conditions. In a perfect world it lets a guy in Denver at 5000 feet compare to another guy's results at sea level by correcting for air pressure (baro), temp, humidity, etc. etc.
Track results are really only comparable if the two cars in question ran on the same track on the same day and then of course driver technique would still be a large factor.
BTW this doesn't discredit the fact the some of the cars that have left Cartek can run a number and obviously make some power....it's just meant to enlighten others that there is alot of variables when trying to compare track results (IMO they represent the worst comparative data)....far more variables than comparing similar dyno's from across the country assuming the dyno's and the operators that run them are all on the up and up and not playing games with the numbers.
Just some things to think about....
Regards,
Tony
PS....And while I'm at it, real world results would show that the guys that have maximized their AFR 205/225 heads have made as much power and gone just as quickly at the track as the TFS crowd and ETP's for that matter. All three represent the pinnacle in current aftermarket castings (cathedral design) CNC ported technology. It really comes down to who's three letters you prefer to have on the front of your cylinder heads. The AFR's advantage IMO is they are truly a direct replacement head so their install doesn't require any additional special parts or situations and they also have the benefit of being emissions legal....the only aftermarket Gen III head to do so. And if you guys are making your determination of who's heads are better based on advertised flow data, you really haven't spent enough time on these boards to realize how fruitless an exercise that is. There isn't even a industry accepted standard in advertising (unfortunately) and some companies are advertising or publishing information concerning their flow data on flowbenchs that read alot different than what I feel should be the industry standard which is still an SF600 SuperFlow (or a 1020 for that matter as well) because they pioneered the entire process and are simply much more popular. Why would a company opt to not publish spec's off a SuperFlow....one reason might be they do not have easy access to one, but other is they know that big flow numbers sell heads and most customers never check or verify. I could go on and on about this topic but suffice to say that if most people went to independent shops to test their cylinder heads 85% of them would leave with very deflated ego's. I have a very old thread on the "other" board ten pages long addressing just this particular situation.
Concerning the fact I have done additional porting to achieve better results with AFR heads....the reality is I can take ANY set of production CNC castings (no matter what brand) and improve upon them if I decide to take the time. As a cylinder head designer by trade that much is a given....alot of what Im addressing is actually related to the machining and stacking of tolerances in a production environment....that type of thing will be prevalent in anybody's CNC ported heads (some worse than others). The chamber modifications I have helped a few people with (which represent the more intrusive work I do and the most actual material removal) simply compliment's the fact a particular customer may now be bolting these heads on a larger bore motor although some of these gains would still be realized on a 3.900 bore engine as well (just wouldn't take full advantage of the additional work). Once again, I could do those same type of chamber mods to "Brand XYZ" and see similar results.
Lastly, to get right to the point, some of the advice you receive on these boards is driven by money (for example you might see a post recommending such and such product and oh yea then find out that particular poster happens to be a distributor for that product, others simply want to pimp a particular product because their buddies with that shop perhaps (the nutswinger factor), and then there are other "agenda's" that are sometimes more hidden. Bottom line is the Internet is a great place to educate yourself and gather alot of information....but you cant take everything you read at face value. The smarter guys dig deeper after seeing certain trends and look for truly independent validation to verify whether that is or isn't the case. The more research and digging you do, the higher the likelihood you will make a wise and informed decision....nobody wants to spend money twice and you guys would be surprised how many actually do.
And I was thinking when I started typing that this was going to be a quick reply.....
CarTek has the luxury of being extremely close to one of the fastest tracks in the country (a few of them actually) and they typically see D/A's in the fall and winter months approaching and occasionally exceeding negative 2000 feet (an N/A combo is essentially supercharged at that point). My original 346 combo with a very optimized 224 small cam package made 475-480 RWHP on numerous dyno's here in southern CA and with typical D/A's in the positive 1000-2000 range (that's at some of the better local tracks) that power in a 3425 lb vehicle was worth low elevens at 124 MPH. Honestly if I launched the car with absolute disregard to the 100 mile ride home (which I would have preferred not being on the back of a flatbed for), the car would have easily gone in the high tens (were talking conservative 1.7's on the 60 foot times to turn an 11.20 or so).
Whats my point....take that same car and trailer it to Englishtown NJ on any given clear night in December and it would have went 10.60's at 128 MPH....maybe better on a negative 2000 or better type of evening.
Unfortunately dyno's have their share of variables as well (brand, type, proper calibration) but at the least they try to account for the biggest variable of all which is weather conditions. In a perfect world it lets a guy in Denver at 5000 feet compare to another guy's results at sea level by correcting for air pressure (baro), temp, humidity, etc. etc.
Track results are really only comparable if the two cars in question ran on the same track on the same day and then of course driver technique would still be a large factor.
BTW this doesn't discredit the fact the some of the cars that have left Cartek can run a number and obviously make some power....it's just meant to enlighten others that there is alot of variables when trying to compare track results (IMO they represent the worst comparative data)....far more variables than comparing similar dyno's from across the country assuming the dyno's and the operators that run them are all on the up and up and not playing games with the numbers.
Just some things to think about....
Regards,
Tony
PS....And while I'm at it, real world results would show that the guys that have maximized their AFR 205/225 heads have made as much power and gone just as quickly at the track as the TFS crowd and ETP's for that matter. All three represent the pinnacle in current aftermarket castings (cathedral design) CNC ported technology. It really comes down to who's three letters you prefer to have on the front of your cylinder heads. The AFR's advantage IMO is they are truly a direct replacement head so their install doesn't require any additional special parts or situations and they also have the benefit of being emissions legal....the only aftermarket Gen III head to do so. And if you guys are making your determination of who's heads are better based on advertised flow data, you really haven't spent enough time on these boards to realize how fruitless an exercise that is. There isn't even a industry accepted standard in advertising (unfortunately) and some companies are advertising or publishing information concerning their flow data on flowbenchs that read alot different than what I feel should be the industry standard which is still an SF600 SuperFlow (or a 1020 for that matter as well) because they pioneered the entire process and are simply much more popular. Why would a company opt to not publish spec's off a SuperFlow....one reason might be they do not have easy access to one, but other is they know that big flow numbers sell heads and most customers never check or verify. I could go on and on about this topic but suffice to say that if most people went to independent shops to test their cylinder heads 85% of them would leave with very deflated ego's. I have a very old thread on the "other" board ten pages long addressing just this particular situation.
Concerning the fact I have done additional porting to achieve better results with AFR heads....the reality is I can take ANY set of production CNC castings (no matter what brand) and improve upon them if I decide to take the time. As a cylinder head designer by trade that much is a given....alot of what Im addressing is actually related to the machining and stacking of tolerances in a production environment....that type of thing will be prevalent in anybody's CNC ported heads (some worse than others). The chamber modifications I have helped a few people with (which represent the more intrusive work I do and the most actual material removal) simply compliment's the fact a particular customer may now be bolting these heads on a larger bore motor although some of these gains would still be realized on a 3.900 bore engine as well (just wouldn't take full advantage of the additional work). Once again, I could do those same type of chamber mods to "Brand XYZ" and see similar results.
Lastly, to get right to the point, some of the advice you receive on these boards is driven by money (for example you might see a post recommending such and such product and oh yea then find out that particular poster happens to be a distributor for that product, others simply want to pimp a particular product because their buddies with that shop perhaps (the nutswinger factor), and then there are other "agenda's" that are sometimes more hidden. Bottom line is the Internet is a great place to educate yourself and gather alot of information....but you cant take everything you read at face value. The smarter guys dig deeper after seeing certain trends and look for truly independent validation to verify whether that is or isn't the case. The more research and digging you do, the higher the likelihood you will make a wise and informed decision....nobody wants to spend money twice and you guys would be surprised how many actually do.
And I was thinking when I started typing that this was going to be a quick reply.....
Julio
06-22-2008, 09:09 PM
#27
Race Director
Tony, you guys make an great product and we have used it on some boosted applications with good results, but I see plenty of AFR headed LSX based H/C cars run on the same track as we do here in the north east and I think that this Cartek only runs good at ATCO excuse is getting quite old.
Julio
Julio
Us guys here on the east coast enjoy a low elevation (improved air density).
BTW, thanks Tony for thoughts, it was a very interesting analysis / comparison of facts / data to be aware of before buying a set of heads.
06-23-2008, 12:22 AM
#28
Racer
Member Since: Jun 2004
Location: Brookfield WI
Posts: 433
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I've got AFR 205 heads and love them.
I did my mods in two stages. The first was a very mild cam and QTP Tri-Y headers. The QTPs seem to give me better midrange torque at the expense of ~10 rwhp at the top end. That seemed an acceptable trade-off to me since I spend much more time at the lower RPMs.
The second set of mods was the AFR 205 heads, a Fast 90 intake, and a LS2 throttle body. Below is a link to a dyno comparison of stock and the two sets of mods. But, that really doesn't do justice to the "seat of the pants" feel. With my "baby cam" the car idles like stock, yet there is power everywhere and it's hard to keep the tires from breaking free (even at highway speeds). I'm an AFR believer.
http://www.comp-soln.com/Dyno3Run.jpg
I did my mods in two stages. The first was a very mild cam and QTP Tri-Y headers. The QTPs seem to give me better midrange torque at the expense of ~10 rwhp at the top end. That seemed an acceptable trade-off to me since I spend much more time at the lower RPMs.
The second set of mods was the AFR 205 heads, a Fast 90 intake, and a LS2 throttle body. Below is a link to a dyno comparison of stock and the two sets of mods. But, that really doesn't do justice to the "seat of the pants" feel. With my "baby cam" the car idles like stock, yet there is power everywhere and it's hard to keep the tires from breaking free (even at highway speeds). I'm an AFR believer.
http://www.comp-soln.com/Dyno3Run.jpg
06-23-2008, 12:29 AM
#29
Drifting
Julio
06-23-2008, 02:07 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
Don't really think that's what Tony said. He said you had access to the better tracks in the country then most others due to your location (aka elevation).
Us guys here on the east coast enjoy a low elevation (improved air density).
BTW, thanks Tony for thoughts, it was a very interesting analysis / comparison of facts / data to be aware of before buying a set of heads.
Us guys here on the east coast enjoy a low elevation (improved air density).
BTW, thanks Tony for thoughts, it was a very interesting analysis / comparison of facts / data to be aware of before buying a set of heads.
06-23-2008, 02:56 PM
#31
Race Director
It kinda is what he said. How many times can you use the DA as an excuse? Yea we get some pretty great days on the east coast but most other parts of the country are going to have their good DA days too, maybe just not as many. DA seems to be the #1 excuse for a car or driver that just can't seem to put the numbers up, for whatever reason it may be. Some might think its impossible but great numbers can and have been put up by people all over the country. Maybe if some people spent more time at the track and less time whining about DA on the internet they can improve thier times too.
I hardly feel that giving others information about why another guy with a similar set-up will go XX and another will go XA as whinning.
I'm glad you're pro Cartek, but that has nothing to do with this thread. The cars on the East Coast have an advantage over cars that are in Texas, Colorado, Utah, etc ..
So naturally, Cartek, ECS, Vette Doctors, etc... tuned cars will do better than some cars that are tuned by someone in one of these other places due to the quality of the air density.
That's the jist of Tony's comments.
This thread is about all the number hype and bullcrap that goes into some of the claims made by various manufactures, etc...
It's comments like the one that you posted that cause many of the more knowledgeable guys not to post up because they are tired of dealing with the
CarTek has the luxury of being extremely close to one of the fastest tracks in the country (a few of them actually) and they typically see D/A's in the fall and winter months approaching and occasionally exceeding negative 2000 feet (an N/A combo is essentially supercharged at that point). My original 346 combo with a very optimized 224 small cam package made 475-480 RWHP on numerous dyno's here in southern CA and with typical D/A's in the positive 1000-2000 range (that's at some of the better local tracks) that power in a 3425 lb vehicle was worth low elevens at 124 MPH. Honestly if I launched the car with absolute disregard to the 100 mile ride home (which I would have preferred not being on the back of a flatbed for), the car would have easily gone in the high tens (were talking conservative 1.7's on the 60 foot times to turn an 11.20 or so).
Whats my point....take that same car and trailer it to Englishtown NJ on any given clear night in December and it would have went 10.60's at 128 MPH....maybe better on a negative 2000 or better type of evening.
Whats my point....take that same car and trailer it to Englishtown NJ on any given clear night in December and it would have went 10.60's at 128 MPH....maybe better on a negative 2000 or better type of evening.
06-23-2008, 03:38 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
I didn't say there was excuses in that paragraph. Try reading the whole post instead of selecting what you want. 
If you are still having trouble maybe I can highlight it for you. 
But I hope that won't be necessary.
Like I said before, people in other parts of the country get good air and have good tracks too. The ones that spend less time complaining about DA and more time racing put up good times just like us. There are some exceptions where DA just wont allow them to run fast but most other parts of the country see decent air at least some time.
You say we have an advantage over Texas? The elevation in Houston is lower than Atco isn't it? They get cold, dry air in the winter like we do, right? So where is the advantage? Cause they have one of the best tacks around down there too. Seriously, educate me!
If you are still having trouble maybe I can highlight it for you. But I hope that won't be necessary. Like I said before, people in other parts of the country get good air and have good tracks too. The ones that spend less time complaining about DA and more time racing put up good times just like us. There are some exceptions where DA just wont allow them to run fast but most other parts of the country see decent air at least some time.
You say we have an advantage over Texas? The elevation in Houston is lower than Atco isn't it? They get cold, dry air in the winter like we do, right? So where is the advantage? Cause they have one of the best tacks around down there too. Seriously, educate me!
Last edited by nickolbag; 06-23-2008 at 03:44 PM.
06-23-2008, 04:09 PM
#33
Race Director
I didn't say there was excuses in that paragraph. Try reading the whole post instead of selecting what you want. If you are still having trouble maybe I can highlight it for you. But I hope that won't be necessary.
Like I said before, people in other parts of the country get good air and have good tracks too. The ones that spend less time complaining about DA and more time racing put up good times just like us. There are some exceptions where DA just wont allow them to run fast but most other parts of the country see decent air at least some time.
You say we have an advantage over Texas? The elevation in Houston is lower than Atco isn't it? They get cold, dry air in the winter like we do, right? So where is the advantage? Cause they have one of the best tacks around down there too. Seriously, educate me!
If you are still having trouble maybe I can highlight it for you. But I hope that won't be necessary. Like I said before, people in other parts of the country get good air and have good tracks too. The ones that spend less time complaining about DA and more time racing put up good times just like us. There are some exceptions where DA just wont allow them to run fast but most other parts of the country see decent air at least some time.
You say we have an advantage over Texas? The elevation in Houston is lower than Atco isn't it? They get cold, dry air in the winter like we do, right? So where is the advantage? Cause they have one of the best tacks around down there too. Seriously, educate me!
Go to Houston during the summer, you'll change your mind quick. You'll feel like you just opened up a 450 degree oven door. Their winter months may be nice for racing just like Florida's winter months.
At different times during the year maybe there are some ideal periods, but the central East Coast area enjoys more than most.
The point of it all is that various conditions, whether it be the tune, track, driver, etc ... auto vs stick, two cars with the same equipment in two different locations can produce widely varying results.
You have to look past the numbers and analyze your results vs anothers.
Personally, I could give a crap about the track (1/4 mile) as I am more interested in top speed and handling. I'm sure that once I get my car together I'll take it for a trip or two down the track just to see how I will do.
06-23-2008, 06:17 PM
#34
Drifting
I don't see anywhere in this paragraph that's what Tony said.
I hardly feel that giving others information about why another guy with a similar set-up will go XX and another will go XA as whinning.
I'm glad you're pro Cartek, but that has nothing to do with this thread. The cars on the East Coast have an advantage over cars that are in Texas, Colorado, Utah, etc ..
So naturally, Cartek, ECS, Vette Doctors, etc... tuned cars will do better than some cars that are tuned by someone in one of these other places due to the quality of the air density.
That's the jist of Tony's comments.
This thread is about all the number hype and bullcrap that goes into some of the claims made by various manufactures, etc...
It's comments like the one that you posted that cause many of the more knowledgeable guys not to post up because they are tired of dealing with the
I hardly feel that giving others information about why another guy with a similar set-up will go XX and another will go XA as whinning.
I'm glad you're pro Cartek, but that has nothing to do with this thread. The cars on the East Coast have an advantage over cars that are in Texas, Colorado, Utah, etc ..
So naturally, Cartek, ECS, Vette Doctors, etc... tuned cars will do better than some cars that are tuned by someone in one of these other places due to the quality of the air density.
That's the jist of Tony's comments.
This thread is about all the number hype and bullcrap that goes into some of the claims made by various manufactures, etc...
It's comments like the one that you posted that cause many of the more knowledgeable guys not to post up because they are tired of dealing with the
I think you still don't get my point, it's very easy, there ARE AFR head and cam cars running here by us.
06-23-2008, 07:54 PM
#35
Race Director
I'm not really interested in an over the top system or pushing my car to the limit like some one here.
While I have done a lot of extensive modifications to my car, I have recently come to the realization that'll I never be able to use 20% of what I have out here on the street.
I think I'll end up pitching in a few bucks with the Bro and get a DSR (Radical Pro Sport) and have my fun that way.
06-23-2008, 08:05 PM
#36
Former Vendor
Jeeeeez....I just checked out how this thread quickly went the wrong direction (or off on a wild tangent at the very least).
My post was meant to be informative and very general in nature and was not specifically aimed at anybody else's product (or certainly wasn't meant to be).
Regarding my "making excuses" I certainly am not as none need to be made. (concerning our product or the legitimacy of better quality tracks and locations). Just because a car has an AFR head on it (or anybody's brand for that matter) doesn't mean it's combination was focused at optimizing quarter mile performance (gears, clutch/converter, size of cam, slicks, skinnies, line lock, driver skill, etc. etc.) In fact to reiterate what I mentioned previously, the average cross section of AFR headed cars are more rounded in nature and not as aggressive, but still produce sizable gains and strong overall results especially in the real world situations most customers can appreciate their high flow, high airspeed design attributes. And yes....I feel just the opposite may be true of a higher percentage of Cartek customers (stating my opinion here)....they are looking for more of an aggressive overall set-up more focused on drag strip performance, AND they do live in a location where the tracks are the most user friendly (that's a FACT....not opinion). And that's not a bad thing and in fact it seems Cartek has a built a successful following and a niche for themselves by focusing there.
Let me tell you something....I grew up and spent 39 years in Long Island and I raced at Atco, Englishtown, and other tracks sitting close to sea level that have cooler climates for many months of the year. After spending the last seven years of my life here in So Cal I have this to say....air quality (D/A) is everything.....its like nothing else matters. Higher air pressure being closer to sea level (and to a lesser extent cooler air) are the two largest contributing factors in power output....period. Take ANY car that's a hero on a cool night in NJ and drop that car in Denver or here in So Cal and that guy would have a serious wake-up call and think he left a spark plug or two off. Take a low eleven second car (in "OK" air) and do just the opposite and that guy will think someone dropped a stroker motor in his car on the trip across country. To be honest, I always understood the science and mathematics behind Density altitude but it wasn't till my first trip to Palmdale (LACR which was closed recently) where I actually experienced it that I really understood what a difference air quality can make. I left the line and was literally waiting for the shift light to come on in first....it only got worse from there as I rowed each higher gear. It was painful almost and very frustrating and that was with just a 3000 foot increase in elevation. When I got back home I had to go for a blast on my favorite spot I designate for those types of things and the car felt great again. It was a serious wake up call for me personally and I really have a much better appreciation now of the impact good or bad D/A numbers can make.
So there's my D/A story....back to work for me.
Tony
PS....BTW, our combinations can be just as lethal in focused more aggessive set-ups. One that quickly comes to mind is a car that Jarrod Cunningham drives (J-rod on this board as most of you know)....its a black Z06 that has gone pretty fast down in Houston with our 205 heads. He swapped from a VERY optimized hand ported set of LS castings with very good results but due to parts breakage and other BS still hasnt gotten a really optimal pass off. Perhaps Jarrod may chime in....He just had another child so I know he has his hands full but I will PM him a link to this thread anyway.
My post was meant to be informative and very general in nature and was not specifically aimed at anybody else's product (or certainly wasn't meant to be).
Regarding my "making excuses" I certainly am not as none need to be made. (concerning our product or the legitimacy of better quality tracks and locations). Just because a car has an AFR head on it (or anybody's brand for that matter) doesn't mean it's combination was focused at optimizing quarter mile performance (gears, clutch/converter, size of cam, slicks, skinnies, line lock, driver skill, etc. etc.) In fact to reiterate what I mentioned previously, the average cross section of AFR headed cars are more rounded in nature and not as aggressive, but still produce sizable gains and strong overall results especially in the real world situations most customers can appreciate their high flow, high airspeed design attributes. And yes....I feel just the opposite may be true of a higher percentage of Cartek customers (stating my opinion here)....they are looking for more of an aggressive overall set-up more focused on drag strip performance, AND they do live in a location where the tracks are the most user friendly (that's a FACT....not opinion). And that's not a bad thing and in fact it seems Cartek has a built a successful following and a niche for themselves by focusing there.
Let me tell you something....I grew up and spent 39 years in Long Island and I raced at Atco, Englishtown, and other tracks sitting close to sea level that have cooler climates for many months of the year. After spending the last seven years of my life here in So Cal I have this to say....air quality (D/A) is everything.....its like nothing else matters. Higher air pressure being closer to sea level (and to a lesser extent cooler air) are the two largest contributing factors in power output....period. Take ANY car that's a hero on a cool night in NJ and drop that car in Denver or here in So Cal and that guy would have a serious wake-up call and think he left a spark plug or two off. Take a low eleven second car (in "OK" air) and do just the opposite and that guy will think someone dropped a stroker motor in his car on the trip across country. To be honest, I always understood the science and mathematics behind Density altitude but it wasn't till my first trip to Palmdale (LACR which was closed recently) where I actually experienced it that I really understood what a difference air quality can make. I left the line and was literally waiting for the shift light to come on in first....it only got worse from there as I rowed each higher gear. It was painful almost and very frustrating and that was with just a 3000 foot increase in elevation. When I got back home I had to go for a blast on my favorite spot I designate for those types of things and the car felt great again. It was a serious wake up call for me personally and I really have a much better appreciation now of the impact good or bad D/A numbers can make.
So there's my D/A story....back to work for me.
Tony
PS....BTW, our combinations can be just as lethal in focused more aggessive set-ups. One that quickly comes to mind is a car that Jarrod Cunningham drives (J-rod on this board as most of you know)....its a black Z06 that has gone pretty fast down in Houston with our 205 heads. He swapped from a VERY optimized hand ported set of LS castings with very good results but due to parts breakage and other BS still hasnt gotten a really optimal pass off. Perhaps Jarrod may chime in....He just had another child so I know he has his hands full but I will PM him a link to this thread anyway.
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 06-23-2008 at 08:16 PM.
06-23-2008, 08:25 PM
#37
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: Shreveport/Bossier Louisiana
Posts: 7,121
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St. Jude Donor '08
AFR's baby !!!
BTW Tony, I cant see these beautiful heads now that the thing is back together. I cant say that I am complaining though LOL
BTW Tony, I cant see these beautiful heads now that the thing is back together. I cant say that I am complaining though LOL
06-24-2008, 01:24 AM
#39
Drifting
Julio
06-24-2008, 02:30 AM
#40
Drifting
"CarTek has the luxury of being extremely close to one of the fastest tracks in the country (a few of them actually) and they typically see D/A's in the fall and winter months approaching and occasionally exceeding negative 2000 feet (an N/A combo is essentially supercharged at that point)."
This is implying that the reason Cartek cars run such low numbers is that we only run under these conditions. Leaving out that many others including AFR powered cars also run in the same NE tracks like ATCO, Etown or Cecil.
Regarding my "making excuses" I certainly am not as none need to be made. (concerning our product or the legitimacy of better quality tracks and locations). Just because a car has an AFR head on it (or anybody's brand for that matter) doesn't mean it's combination was focused at optimizing quarter mile performance (gears, clutch/converter, size of cam, slicks, skinnies, line lock, driver skill, etc. etc.) In fact to reiterate what I mentioned previously, the average cross section of AFR headed cars are more rounded in nature and not as aggressive, but still produce sizable gains and strong overall results especially in the real world situations most customers can appreciate their high flow, high airspeed design attributes. And yes....I feel just the opposite may be true of a higher percentage of Cartek customers (stating my opinion here)....they are looking for more of an aggressive overall set-up more focused on drag strip performance, AND they do live in a location where the tracks are the most user friendly (that's a FACT....not opinion). And that's not a bad thing and in fact it seems Cartek has a built a successful following and a niche for themselves by focusing there.
I have some opinions of my own on the AFR 205 heads, but I prefer to keep my opinions to myself and out of sheer ethics I would prefer that you keep your opinions and comments about Cartek out of any posts.
Let me tell you something....I grew up and spent 39 years in Long Island and I raced at Atco, Englishtown, and other tracks sitting close to sea level that have cooler climates for many months of the year. After spending the last seven years of my life here in So Cal I have this to say....air quality (D/A) is everything.....its like nothing else matters. Higher air pressure being closer to sea level (and to a lesser extent cooler air) are the two largest contributing factors in power output....period. Take ANY car that's a hero on a cool night in NJ and drop that car in Denver or here in So Cal and that guy would have a serious wake-up call and think he left a spark plug or two off. Take a low eleven second car (in "OK" air) and do just the opposite and that guy will think someone dropped a stroker motor in his car on the trip across country. To be honest, I always understood the science and mathematics behind Density altitude but it wasn't till my first trip to Palmdale (LACR which was closed recently) where I actually experienced it that I really understood what a difference air quality can make. I left the line and was literally waiting for the shift light to come on in first....it only got worse from there as I rowed each higher gear. It was painful almost and very frustrating and that was with just a 3000 foot increase in elevation. When I got back home I had to go for a blast on my favorite spot I designate for those types of things and the car felt great again. It was a serious wake up call for me personally and I really have a much better appreciation now of the impact good or bad D/A numbers can make.
Julio