Hydro-lock when stationery?
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
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From: Midland TX
Hydro-lock when stationery?
I understand how an engine could hydro-lock going down the street and sucking up water in the intake while the car is in motion.
But is it "possible" for an engine to get water in the cylinders when the car is stationery and turned off - like say from rinsing off the engine with a hose?
I guess if there was a head gasket leak that might get water into a cylinder?
Just trying to find out what might cause an engine to mechanically resist turning over when the Starter is engaged? After my starter broke and broke off part of the engine block with it, the dealership's first guess was that the engine had seized and when the starter could not turn the engine, it broke off the block. Investigation showed no causes. Oil was new and in good shape, no water found anywhere and engine flywheel could be turned by hand?
I just want to know if "water" COULD cause something like this for future reference. It is hard for me to imagine that a GM engine could be mechanically destroyed by a little water (unless it was ingested through the intake). I could see engine electronics being damaged by water, but as I understand, if everything is not perfect with the electronics/sensors - the starter will not even engage?
But is it "possible" for an engine to get water in the cylinders when the car is stationery and turned off - like say from rinsing off the engine with a hose?
I guess if there was a head gasket leak that might get water into a cylinder?
Just trying to find out what might cause an engine to mechanically resist turning over when the Starter is engaged? After my starter broke and broke off part of the engine block with it, the dealership's first guess was that the engine had seized and when the starter could not turn the engine, it broke off the block. Investigation showed no causes. Oil was new and in good shape, no water found anywhere and engine flywheel could be turned by hand?
I just want to know if "water" COULD cause something like this for future reference. It is hard for me to imagine that a GM engine could be mechanically destroyed by a little water (unless it was ingested through the intake). I could see engine electronics being damaged by water, but as I understand, if everything is not perfect with the electronics/sensors - the starter will not even engage?
Tech Contributor
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From: Anthony TX
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
Unless you had a massive leak in the intake manifold (you would have seen very poor engine performance prior to the incident) theres no way water is going to get into the engine without going through the throttle body inlet.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,774
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From: Midland TX
Planning on getting pics on Monday to post
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,774
Likes: 363
From: Midland TX
Both starter bolts were still in (and tight) as installed originally at the factory (never been tampered with since day one 8 years ago). They were both still torqued down tight when the dealership went to remove the broken starter (I was there watching). Both the starter flange and block were broken and the starter was just hanging by the inner bolt, but the other bolt was still tight against the part of the starter that broke off where it was attached to the block. You could see where the block sheared off right through the bolt threads on the outer bolt from the top of the engine compartment, but the bolt was still tight against the piece that was left.
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Tech Contributor
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From: Dyer, IN
I'm confused why you are fixated on the water in the engine. Unless I've misread something, the dealership found no evidence of water ingestion..and the motor is easily turned.. so move on to the next possibility.
Why did the engine have to resist rotation to break the block? How do you know it wasn't a casting defect in the block? I find it hard to believe that the starter could magically muster that much torque, that it could just break the block if the motor refused to turn. Conversely, I think it more possible that the starter either bound, or stayed engaged, and the flywheel rotation broke the block.
Why did the engine have to resist rotation to break the block? How do you know it wasn't a casting defect in the block? I find it hard to believe that the starter could magically muster that much torque, that it could just break the block if the motor refused to turn. Conversely, I think it more possible that the starter either bound, or stayed engaged, and the flywheel rotation broke the block.
Tech Contributor
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From: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
If you have a slow leak in the intake gasket you can get water in the cylinder while the engine is turned off. It happened to my daughter's Citation many years ago. She had been driving the car for about a half hour and then parked it and went into a mall to shop. When she came out some time later the engine would not turn over. As the engine cooled pressurized water from the cooling system had slowly filled the cylinder. Since the hole in the gasket was very small the piston could not push the water back out. The simple expedient of removing a spark plug allowed it to start although it didn't run too well on 3 cylinders. The mechanic who repaired the car said it was obvious the problem had been there for a long time but in this case my daughter hadn't let the car sit long enough for the coolant to slowly drain down past the piston rings which would have taken over night to happen.
Bill
Bill
Racer
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: chicago il
well damn I'm stumped Ive seen a bad injector dump fuel. I would assume that this could also be a cause but it would have to be the perfect scenario where the intake vavle was open
Last edited by fst85vtt; Oct 26, 2008 at 12:57 AM.
Tech Contributor
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From: Van Buren Arkansas
Wounded Warrior Escort '11
I just re-read the original post and missed the fact that you were able to turn it over by hand after the starter was removed. If you were hydrolocked, that wouldn't have happened. So, if the engine can and does rotate by hand/wrench, you mechanic pulled the plugs and found no evidence of coolant or water in the cylinders, then you are back to two possibilities...1) either the starter came apart and bound up so bad that it broke the block (which happened) or 2) The driveline was somehow still engaged to the point that it locked up everything... but I think it would have been real obvious had that been the case. I didn't look to see if you have an automatic or a manual...possible clutch issue?
Team Owner
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From: Dear Karma, I have a list of people you missed.
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
I'm confused why you are fixated on the water in the engine. Unless I've misread something, the dealership found no evidence of water ingestion..and the motor is easily turned.. so move on to the next possibility.
Why did the engine have to resist rotation to break the block? How do you know it wasn't a casting defect in the block? I find it hard to believe that the starter could magically muster that much torque, that it could just break the block if the motor refused to turn. Conversely, I think it more possible that the starter either bound, or stayed engaged, and the flywheel rotation broke the block.
Why did the engine have to resist rotation to break the block? How do you know it wasn't a casting defect in the block? I find it hard to believe that the starter could magically muster that much torque, that it could just break the block if the motor refused to turn. Conversely, I think it more possible that the starter either bound, or stayed engaged, and the flywheel rotation broke the block.
BTW, I've been wondering why you had a new engine coming John. Now I know.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
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From: Midland TX
I just re-read the original post and missed the fact that you were able to turn it over by hand after the starter was removed. If you were hydrolocked, that wouldn't have happened. So, if the engine can and does rotate by hand/wrench, you mechanic pulled the plugs and found no evidence of coolant or water in the cylinders, then you are back to two possibilities...1) either the starter came apart and bound up so bad that it broke the block (which happened) or 2) The driveline was somehow still engaged to the point that it locked up everything... but I think it would have been real obvious had that been the case. I didn't look to see if you have an automatic or a manual...possible clutch issue?
Automatic
Tech Contributor
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From: Forney Texas
If you have a slow leak in the intake gasket you can get water in the cylinder while the engine is turned off. It happened to my daughter's Citation many years ago. She had been driving the car for about a half hour and then parked it and went into a mall to shop. When she came out some time later the engine would not turn over. As the engine cooled pressurized water from the cooling system had slowly filled the cylinder. Since the hole in the gasket was very small the piston could not push the water back out. The simple expedient of removing a spark plug allowed it to start although it didn't run too well on 3 cylinders. The mechanic who repaired the car said it was obvious the problem had been there for a long time but in this case my daughter hadn't let the car sit long enough for the coolant to slowly drain down past the piston rings which would have taken over night to happen.
Bill
Bill
Last edited by BLOWNBLUEZ06; Oct 26, 2008 at 10:42 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
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From: Midland TX
Obviously that was a concern since that was the only variable I could come up with (engine ran, turned engine off, washed car, engine POW!); however, I am very aware of the cautions not to get water around the sensors, etc. when rinsing off a C5 engine and my Hurricane intake pretty much guarantees that water won't get in through the intake when rinsing. That said, I have washed my engine compartment many times over the past 8 years and never had ANY problems of any sort.
Tech Contributor
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From: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
That may be the case for other cars, but we don't have water running through the intakes, so a bad intake gasket would only the ingestion of water from an outside source. The only way I see coolant is going to get in there is a cracked sleeve, a cracked head or blown headgasket.
Bill
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,774
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From: Midland TX
Here are some photos of the broken block and starter that I took at the dealership today.
Also after I looked at the photos... can anyone tell me what that part is that I circled in red in the second photo? Does that look normal or is that something broken as well?
Also after I looked at the photos... can anyone tell me what that part is that I circled in red in the second photo? Does that look normal or is that something broken as well?
Team Owner
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From: Dear Karma, I have a list of people you missed.
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
GM part # for that one is: 12562042