how hard are superchargers on the engine?
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From: warner robins georgia
how hard are superchargers on the engine?
I've always been interested in supercharging my car, but it looked like a pain in the rear (for a layperson, anyway).
Even if I did have a professional install, I was always bothered by the extra stress on the engine/drivetrain. Do engines with superchargers do well long-term. Let's say 100,000+miles with regular driving (very few racetrack visits).
Also, what does it do to daily driving and gas mileage. BTW, I was eyeballing the breathless performance supercharger:
Part# 500-100 Procharger Supercharger System $5,999.00
My car is completely stock.
[Modified by rbridges, 9:17 AM 1/20/2002]
Even if I did have a professional install, I was always bothered by the extra stress on the engine/drivetrain. Do engines with superchargers do well long-term. Let's say 100,000+miles with regular driving (very few racetrack visits).
Also, what does it do to daily driving and gas mileage. BTW, I was eyeballing the breathless performance supercharger:
Part# 500-100 Procharger Supercharger System $5,999.00
My car is completely stock.
[Modified by rbridges, 9:17 AM 1/20/2002]
Racer
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Boca Raton FL
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (rbridges)
This was mine consern also.
I have just installed ATI Procharger on my car, I have not driven it yet.
It is no doubth about it will stress your engine and drivetrain more, but in the the end it is entire up to your self how you drive the car.
Her is a Quote from ATI Faq:
Take a look at: http://www.ls1.com http://www.ls1tech.com http://www.procharger.com/faq.html
Richard
[Modified by eikeland, 4:26 PM 1/20/2002]
I have just installed ATI Procharger on my car, I have not driven it yet.
It is no doubth about it will stress your engine and drivetrain more, but in the the end it is entire up to your self how you drive the car.
Her is a Quote from ATI Faq:
Will a supercharger shorten the life of my engine or drivetrain?
That is a very subjective question, as the manner in which an automobile is driven directly affects engine life. Assuming a properly tuned system, proper oil change and engine maintenance, and similar driving, supercharging generally will not shorten the life of an engine, just as is the case with OEM turbocharging (with proper cooldown for turbochargers. A cooldown period after driving is not necessary with supercharging). This is especially true of centrifugal supercharging, which generates boost in line with engine rpm, unlike roots and twin screw blowers, whose low rpm boost can place additional strain on the engine and drive train.
Superchargers can be used with automatic or manual transmissions and will not increase transmission wear under normal driving. When racing, however, the additional torque provided by supercharging will place additional load on the transmission, especially when increased traction is present, such as with slicks. This impact is minimized when the boost increases with engine rpm, as is the case with centrifugal supercharging and turbocharging.
That is a very subjective question, as the manner in which an automobile is driven directly affects engine life. Assuming a properly tuned system, proper oil change and engine maintenance, and similar driving, supercharging generally will not shorten the life of an engine, just as is the case with OEM turbocharging (with proper cooldown for turbochargers. A cooldown period after driving is not necessary with supercharging). This is especially true of centrifugal supercharging, which generates boost in line with engine rpm, unlike roots and twin screw blowers, whose low rpm boost can place additional strain on the engine and drive train.
Superchargers can be used with automatic or manual transmissions and will not increase transmission wear under normal driving. When racing, however, the additional torque provided by supercharging will place additional load on the transmission, especially when increased traction is present, such as with slicks. This impact is minimized when the boost increases with engine rpm, as is the case with centrifugal supercharging and turbocharging.
Richard
[Modified by eikeland, 4:26 PM 1/20/2002]
Racer
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 484
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From: Pasadena MD
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (rbridges)
I'm curious about the daily driving characteristics. Seems like wheel spin would be a big problem in wet weather and wet roads with all that extra housepower. I am also very curious about the MPG. I love getting 19 average right now, what would happen to fuel economy?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,112
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From: Blue Springs MO
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (Als98C5)
I was also wondering about daily driveability. I called ATI and was told there is no boost until 2500 RPM. Boost gradually increases from 2500 to 5000 RPM. At 5000 RPM the system is a full boost.
This shouldn't cause a problem in wet weather since we wouldn't leave the stop light at 2500 RPM's.
This shouldn't cause a problem in wet weather since we wouldn't leave the stop light at 2500 RPM's.
Racer
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 484
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From: Pasadena MD
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (Jim Shearer)
Thanks Jim,
If there is no boost until 2500 rpms then the average MPG on the highway shouldn't change very much either. Unless you cruise in 4th gear, that is. What do you think?
If there is no boost until 2500 rpms then the average MPG on the highway shouldn't change very much either. Unless you cruise in 4th gear, that is. What do you think?
Racer
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 318
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From: Newhall CA
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (Als98C5)
The super charger on my C5 (click my banner to see car) is the second vortec installation I have owned. The other is my 5.0 Mustang nitrous blown. Both have great drive ability and gas mileage for the HP output.
When you do not have your foot hard on it, gas mileage and drive ability seems about the same as stock... of course in my case going to a stroker, cam etc. on the C5 changes the gas mileage from stock, but not dramatically, if driven carefully. Of course this has nothing to do with the blower.
The computers these days are wonderful for keeping the car running smooth under normal driving conditions even if you have a built up motor and/ or a blower installation.
So basically I would personally not worry about the gas mileage and drive ability question. In fact I have seen blower installations on trucks and cars that have actually improved gas mileage 1 mpg or more, probably because proper tuning went along with the installation. Some of these cars have 80K miles on them and more.
I am really not a fan of putting a high boost (7lbs is high boost) blower on a stock engine. What I would really focus on for the C5 is:
Is your harmonic balancer keywayed so it will not spin under the high horsepower increase of the stock engine?
Do you have an 8 Rib pulley /belt system to avoid belt slippage and horse power loss.
Are you running no more the 10:1 compression? Any more could lead to disaster on a stock engine in the long run (that is what you are referring to in your post.. the long run).
Think about the bottom end of the engine. Think Lunati! Kicking out 490 RWHP (such as the ATI kit seems to do) is really hammering your stock bottom end.
Do you have an 8 Rib pulley /belt system to avoid belt slippage and horse power loss?
Did you properly modify your fuel delivery system to avoid fuel pressure loss and detonation?
And MOST importantly was the tuning on the installation done by an experienced computer chip tuner like Ron Zimmerman or Steve Cole. There are other factors to consider but these are some of the more important.
Mell
When you do not have your foot hard on it, gas mileage and drive ability seems about the same as stock... of course in my case going to a stroker, cam etc. on the C5 changes the gas mileage from stock, but not dramatically, if driven carefully. Of course this has nothing to do with the blower.
The computers these days are wonderful for keeping the car running smooth under normal driving conditions even if you have a built up motor and/ or a blower installation.
So basically I would personally not worry about the gas mileage and drive ability question. In fact I have seen blower installations on trucks and cars that have actually improved gas mileage 1 mpg or more, probably because proper tuning went along with the installation. Some of these cars have 80K miles on them and more.
I am really not a fan of putting a high boost (7lbs is high boost) blower on a stock engine. What I would really focus on for the C5 is:
Is your harmonic balancer keywayed so it will not spin under the high horsepower increase of the stock engine?
Do you have an 8 Rib pulley /belt system to avoid belt slippage and horse power loss.
Are you running no more the 10:1 compression? Any more could lead to disaster on a stock engine in the long run (that is what you are referring to in your post.. the long run).
Think about the bottom end of the engine. Think Lunati! Kicking out 490 RWHP (such as the ATI kit seems to do) is really hammering your stock bottom end.
Do you have an 8 Rib pulley /belt system to avoid belt slippage and horse power loss?
Did you properly modify your fuel delivery system to avoid fuel pressure loss and detonation?
And MOST importantly was the tuning on the installation done by an experienced computer chip tuner like Ron Zimmerman or Steve Cole. There are other factors to consider but these are some of the more important.
Mell
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Boca Raton FL
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (Mell)
The super charger on my C5 (click my banner to see car) is the second vortec installation I have owned. The other is my 5.0 Mustang nitrous blown. Both have great drive ability and gas mileage for the HP output.
When you do not have your foot hard on it, gas mileage and drive ability seems about the same as stock... of course in my case going to a stroker, cam etc. on the C5 changes the gas mileage from stock, but not dramatically, if driven carefully. Of course this has nothing to do with the blower.
The computers these days are wonderful for keeping the car running smooth under normal driving conditions even if you have a built up motor and/ or a blower installation.
So basically I would personally not worry about the gas mileage and drive ability question. In fact I have seen blower installations on trucks and cars that have actually improved gas mileage 1 mpg or more, probably because proper tuning went along with the installation. Some of these cars have 80K miles on them and more.
I am really not a fan of putting a high boost (7lbs is high boost) blower on a stock engine. What I would really focus on for the C5 is:
Is your harmonic balancer keywayed so it will not spin under the high horsepower increase of the stock engine?
Do you have an 8 Rib pulley /belt system to avoid belt slippage and horse power loss.
Are you running no more the 10:1 compression? Any more could lead to disaster on a stock engine in the long run (that is what you are referring to in your post.. the long run).
Think about the bottom end of the engine. Think Lunati! Kicking out 490 RWHP (such as the ATI kit seems to do) is really hammering your stock bottom end.
Do you have an 8 Rib pulley /belt system to avoid belt slippage and horse power loss?
Did you properly modify your fuel delivery system to avoid fuel pressure loss and detonation?
And MOST importantly was the tuning on the installation done by an experienced computer chip tuner like Ron Zimmerman or Steve Cole. There are other factors to consider but these are some of the more important.
Mell
When you do not have your foot hard on it, gas mileage and drive ability seems about the same as stock... of course in my case going to a stroker, cam etc. on the C5 changes the gas mileage from stock, but not dramatically, if driven carefully. Of course this has nothing to do with the blower.
The computers these days are wonderful for keeping the car running smooth under normal driving conditions even if you have a built up motor and/ or a blower installation.
So basically I would personally not worry about the gas mileage and drive ability question. In fact I have seen blower installations on trucks and cars that have actually improved gas mileage 1 mpg or more, probably because proper tuning went along with the installation. Some of these cars have 80K miles on them and more.
I am really not a fan of putting a high boost (7lbs is high boost) blower on a stock engine. What I would really focus on for the C5 is:
Is your harmonic balancer keywayed so it will not spin under the high horsepower increase of the stock engine?
Do you have an 8 Rib pulley /belt system to avoid belt slippage and horse power loss.
Are you running no more the 10:1 compression? Any more could lead to disaster on a stock engine in the long run (that is what you are referring to in your post.. the long run).
Think about the bottom end of the engine. Think Lunati! Kicking out 490 RWHP (such as the ATI kit seems to do) is really hammering your stock bottom end.
Do you have an 8 Rib pulley /belt system to avoid belt slippage and horse power loss?
Did you properly modify your fuel delivery system to avoid fuel pressure loss and detonation?
And MOST importantly was the tuning on the installation done by an experienced computer chip tuner like Ron Zimmerman or Steve Cole. There are other factors to consider but these are some of the more important.
Mell
and I do NOT intend to start any discussion what is best for a SC Engine.
The rules is simple: If you want to be sure it will hold, then you follow Mel's example, and prepare your bottom but it will cost you more. The old saying is you get what you pay for.
But I have read about many SC solutions (especaly at LS1.COM and LS1TECH.COM) and it a few guys there who has runned a long time with 10PSI on stock bottom LS1 and raced it regulary, it is a gamble but it seams like many of them holds together.
I talked with many well known tuners and most of them recomended me use my low mile stock engine for the ATI.
ATI also clames to have the coolest air in the marked, and cooler air defently do not hurt the engine more.
PS! ATI has a 5-PSI 490 Shaft HP Package as well.
Anyway my way to look at it was i.e LPE (I figgured can blow 2-3 engines for LPE's prices). LPE offer state of the art LS1 package solution, I do not think anyone argue about that. But I also knew I needed Brakes, Clutch, better Cooling, tires, rimes, etc. So I did go with ATI and had budget left for other needed mods.
oh well since no one had done this so far...well some had to do it.
I guess after a while I will know how it went, I will not do much racing so expect mine to hold together for a while.
I have no idea if this make sense for anyone other the my self.... :crazy:
/Richard
[Modified by eikeland, 7:43 PM 1/20/2002]
Drifting
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,871
Likes: 248
From: Weatherford TX
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (rbridges)
We have a 99 Buick Regal with the 3800 engine /factory supercharger. It isn't a vette, but the supercharger is there when you need it. We had a 95 identical car before except for the supercharger. About the only difference I notice is that it goes up hills real quick when it downshifts and the boost comes in. The gas mileage went down from about 29 to 27 as I can tell. Just driving it down the road you can watch the boost come in and go as it is called for, computer does it all. I don't think the engine inside is any different with the supercharger on it. With a supercharger on a vette it should really go. But then again I think our 99 vette is real quick anyway without one. JMO
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Thread Starter
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From: warner robins georgia
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (kenrobb)
thanks for the replies. It makes you realize how little you know about something. Definitely food for thought.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: Kayenta Utah
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (rbridges)
I've posted this so many times, I'm starting to sound like the Rocky Horror Picture Show...
The supercharger itself is rarely the problem. The problem is...greed. You gain so much power, you think you can squeeze out a little more. Safely, you can't, and you'll have no warning before your engines craters.
Do not raise your rev-limiter much if any.
Do not run too much timing.
Do not run too much boost.
Do not use cheap gas, and use 100 octane unleaded when you run more advance.
Detonation will end your motor's life. The normal rotational forces of an engine are harder on it than a supercharger, unless you exceed SOA. (If I have to explain what "SOA" is, you better not even think about a supercharger...)
I got 30,000 miles out of a Vortech S-Trim on an LT1, with no problems. The engine and s/c are still running, after five years of responsible fun.
The supercharger itself is rarely the problem. The problem is...greed. You gain so much power, you think you can squeeze out a little more. Safely, you can't, and you'll have no warning before your engines craters.
Do not raise your rev-limiter much if any.
Do not run too much timing.
Do not run too much boost.
Do not use cheap gas, and use 100 octane unleaded when you run more advance.
Detonation will end your motor's life. The normal rotational forces of an engine are harder on it than a supercharger, unless you exceed SOA. (If I have to explain what "SOA" is, you better not even think about a supercharger...)
I got 30,000 miles out of a Vortech S-Trim on an LT1, with no problems. The engine and s/c are still running, after five years of responsible fun.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,423
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From: western colorado colorado
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (Mell)
I think MELL answered the question very well..I had a 9lb kit on my 95 Firehawk, which made around 415 RWHP...I would say the key to a blown car is COMMON SENSE....Take time to get to know the added power, also i am not a fan of pushing it when very hot outside, and always keep 94 octane in it..This car now has 55000 miles on it, from what i have heard, couple belts but thats it...This kit on the LT1 was VERY noisy, but i liked it... :yesnod:
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 55,394
Likes: 1
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (Paul Scarpelli)
I've posted this so many times, I'm starting to sound like the Rocky Horror Picture Show...
The supercharger itself is rarely the problem. The problem is...greed. You gain so much power, you think you can squeeze out a little more. Safely, you can't, and you'll have no warning before your engines craters.
Do not raise your rev-limiter much if any.
Do not run too much timing.
Do not run too much boost.
Do not use cheap gas, and use 100 octane unleaded when you run more advance.
Detonation will end your motor's life. The normal rotational forces of an engine are harder on it than a supercharger, unless you exceed SOA. (If I have to explain what "SOA" is, you better not even think about a supercharger...)
I got 30,000 miles out of a Vortech S-Trim on an LT1, with no problems. The engine and s/c are still running, after five years of responsible fun.
The supercharger itself is rarely the problem. The problem is...greed. You gain so much power, you think you can squeeze out a little more. Safely, you can't, and you'll have no warning before your engines craters.
Do not raise your rev-limiter much if any.
Do not run too much timing.
Do not run too much boost.
Do not use cheap gas, and use 100 octane unleaded when you run more advance.
Detonation will end your motor's life. The normal rotational forces of an engine are harder on it than a supercharger, unless you exceed SOA. (If I have to explain what "SOA" is, you better not even think about a supercharger...)
I got 30,000 miles out of a Vortech S-Trim on an LT1, with no problems. The engine and s/c are still running, after five years of responsible fun.
Don't worry about being so repetitve. It often takes repetition before things sink in the average person's head anyway. I always look forward to your knowledgeable posts.
Pro
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 693
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From: Merrick NY
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (Ha-Ha)
It's definitely all relative to the person driving it and how he takes care of it. Supercharger, no supercharger as along as the car is not abused for too long. You can have a person that has a led foot in a stock C5 and beat the **** out of it for 30K miles and blown the bottem end and fry motor. Does that mean that the engine is not a longevity motor. No. It just means that the guy wanted to squeeze every bit of power out of the vette every chance he gets. I've driven brand new car rentals and beat the living heck out of it ie., neutral drops, redlining it, power brake etc., for 1500 miles, and the car is already stuttering at 5k miles on the odometer. Is that car gonna last... NO... why ... cause I abused it. I betcha if granny got her hands on a S/C C5.. that thing would last for 200K miles just for the fact she would neva go about 40mph. but yet give it to a 18yr old newbie.... 10K miles at most.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,104
Likes: 0
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (Paul Scarpelli)
Paul,
Can you please explain SOA? And yes, even though I am not familiar with that acronym, I am considering a supercharger - sorry for my ignorance.
Thanks
Can you please explain SOA? And yes, even though I am not familiar with that acronym, I am considering a supercharger - sorry for my ignorance.
Thanks
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 26,714
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From: Houston, TX
Re: how hard are superchargers on the engine? (fxrhm)
Don't feel bad about not knowing what SOA is. I don't either, and I have done an aftermarket Turbo (no, not the Corvette), and know quite a bit about engines in general terms.
There is excellent advice above. Anyone who thinks it will not decrease engine life should not put one on. You might get lucky, but hope for the best and plan for the worst.
One more note, read the new Motor Trend article on the upcoming supercharged Mustang engine. Very enlightening. Also, note that Lingenfelter generally changes out many internal parts on the engines that are tested on the pages of car magazines. Ever wonder why his cars never break in these tests, while many other tuner cars do? He does not send cars to be publicly tested that have not been strengthened internally.
[Modified by jschindler, 10:01 PM 1/31/2002]
There is excellent advice above. Anyone who thinks it will not decrease engine life should not put one on. You might get lucky, but hope for the best and plan for the worst.
One more note, read the new Motor Trend article on the upcoming supercharged Mustang engine. Very enlightening. Also, note that Lingenfelter generally changes out many internal parts on the engines that are tested on the pages of car magazines. Ever wonder why his cars never break in these tests, while many other tuner cars do? He does not send cars to be publicly tested that have not been strengthened internally.
[Modified by jschindler, 10:01 PM 1/31/2002]
