If I had access to a lift I would certainly be doing this. Tearing off the tunnel plate and exhaust isn't anything that scares me. I simply don't have a place to do it. That leaves me with two options: 1) try the vacuum method, or 2) leave my car at a shop with idiots I don't trust to replace parts and/or bleed the system correctly.



If I had to take a guess (and that is all it would be at this point), I'd say that a lack of full disengagement is what's happening. What I can't figure out, however, is why the problem doesn't exist for every shift. While one shift might feel like a warm knife through butter, the next shift might have extreme resistance. There is no pattern to it at all.



Thanks again to everyone who has been kind enough to comment!

LO PHAT

 

[QUOTE=LO PHAT;
If I had to take a guess (and that is all it would be at this point), I'd say that a lack of full disengagement is what's happening. What I can't figure out, however, is why the problem doesn't exist for every shift. While one shift might feel like a warm knife through butter, the next shift might have extreme resistance. There is no pattern to it at all.
LO PHAT[/QUOTE]

I used the vacuum method right after changing my clutch and slave. I only have a small Mighty Vac. It worked excellent. It didnt take me 20 or 30 minutes though, more like 5-10 max.

I would say if you try the vacuum method to bleeding, and it doesnt work, look for a possible leak. If that turns up nothing, I would then think about the clutch master bleeding fluid by internally.

 

You do not need a lift, a floor jack and some jack-stands is all that is required.

 

Sorry I tried to help.... This is the response you get from alot of @#&^$# people that have nothing better to do then talk BS about someones ideas who try to help. I DID NOT invent this proceedure ipuig, IPIG? It was given to me from an engineer at GM, it is also used by Mcleod clutches, I guess they are off the wall as well. When you use this method to bleed you don't have to crawl under the car at all nor touch the bleeder valve. I do aggree that it would be a good idea to remove the inspection plate and see how much travel you are getting out of the slave, but it would be nice if you know in advance that the system is free of air unlike your head IPIG.

 

LO PHAT, clear out your PM's.

http://www.tick-performance.com/tick...te/hydraulics/

Factory hydraulics are terrible, this will fix your problem. It's fairly cheap and fairly easy.

 

Forgive me, I had no idea you had gotten the procedure from the "mysterious GM engineer", that makes it absolutely acceptable in my eyes! If you knew anything about hydraulic systems you would realize what an idiotic procedure that is for bleeding the C-5's hydraulic system.
I like the personal insult "IPIG" shows how juvenile you are.

 

I too am having trouble with the vacuum pressure at the MC bleed method. I'm just not seeing how this would work very well. Wouldn't that assume that the hardline is entering the slave at its highest point? You know, where the bleeder is? Is that the case? And even if it is, this method would rely on decreasing the volume of fluid in the slave i.e. pulling it farther back than normal. This might work if there was a small amount of air in the lines, but if it's in the slave itself I doubt you're gonna suck it out like this.

 

I again want to thank everyone who has posted a reply.

What I hate seeing here is that for a few of you this has turned into an argument of some sort over what is right and what is wrong. Regardless of which side of the fence you might be on, I feel that there is a lot of valuable information that has been presented in this thread. I'd like to ask that we stay focused as it appears I'm not the only one interested in the various suggestions that have been made.

On a side note, I cleared out my inbox for those of you who were trying to contact me by PM.

Thanks again,
LO PHAT

 

The manufacturer's procedure for bleeding the clutch although time consuming and cumbersone, will allow for the removal of the air from the system and for a complete flush of the hydraulic system with fresh fluid. This is why so many individuals including myself, have chosen to install the remote bleeder fitting when replacing the clutch.
If this does not work, at the very least you will know that your problems are not as a result of air in the hydraulic system or bad fluid. This is a necessary maintenance procedure, and the first step in troubleshooting the system in my opinion.
As far as the vacuum method for bleeding the system is concerned, all I have to ask is the following: Have you ever tried to suck fluid through a straw out of a hermetically sealed container, not very effective!
Discourse is good, especially if it leads to you solving your problem with the clutch. Too bad one individual took it to the level of a school yard brawl with the personal insults. Good luck

 

Hey Ipuig, check out this thread..

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...cs-inside.html

chuckster shows a slave torn down

I think after seeing it in pieces, I might have to back down a little from my (our) position. The port is indeed at the high point, the volume is very very small, and it looks like you could easily collapse the cylinder with adequate vacuum. Could you purge all the old fluid? Nope, not a chance in hell. Could you bleed all the air? Yes, I think you probably could. It might take a few tries though.

 

It seems you have belittled an air bleeding procedure that works because the method isn't found in the GM maintenance procedures, yet you install a non GM device that is clearly not in the manuals to bleed your personal system. this seems to be a little hypocritical on your part. If using a remote bleeder was such a great idea why hasn't GM installed them as standard equipment?

There are many accepted ways to do maintenance on vehicles, GM picks one to put in the manuals, it doesn't mean you can't do it some other way. I can think of at least 4 different procedures to bleed a brake system. They all get the job done and are well accepted in the industry yet GM only covers one.

 

I'm not belittlening the vacuum procedure, I just think it's physically impossible to remove all of the air and old fluid for two reasons, the system is hermetically sealed (or at least it should be to prevent leaks), and the hydraulic fluid entry point into the slave cylinder is lower than the bleed point.
As far as adding an extension hose to the original bleed connection (remote bleeder), you are correct, it does not follow the manufactuirer's procedure to the letter, however I do believe that it accomplishes the desired effect, which is to bleed/flush the air and old fluid from the high point connection on the slave cylinder actuator. I think everyone that has installed one of these remote bleeder kits understands this.

 

Perhaps I am not fully understanding the vacuum method being discussed. My problem was the clutch was engaging way too soon in relation to pedal position. In other words, the clutch engagement began when the pedal was about 1 to 1 1/2" off the floor.

WITH a remote bleeder line, I hooked up the hand held Mighty Vac. One end on the bleeder & into a sealed collection cup. With the cap off the clutch master, I applied vacuum up to about 15 psi and watched the air bubbles flow through the clear hose into the collection cup, while constantly filling the master cylinder. When the bubbles stopped I was confident the air was out of the system.

When I test drove the car, the clutch felt just about perfect as far as clutch engagement in relation to pedal position. The method I used seemed to work exactly as it was supposed to. Am I missing something here, or is this what were talking about?

 

No, you are not missing anything, however apparently it depends on who you ask to comment on the procedure you choose to use. If you are asking my opinion your example of a hand vacuum pump for bleeding the clutch system is a well known excepted means to do it, even though it is NOT in the maintenance procedures as some here feel it has to be before it can be a valid process.

As a side note, there are hydraulic clutch systems in other vehicles that lack a bleeder port on the slave. The process to remove entrapped air involves pulling a vacuum on the reservoir as described in the earlier posting by C5 LS7. A similar technique is used to remove entrapped air from some power steering systems when the wheel lock to lock method doesn't fully remove it.

 

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply, guys...

So my wife and I tried the vacuum method on my '98 Corvette's clutch last week. I feel that I have more questions than answers to share at this point.

Following the instructions provided in this thread, we attempted to bleed air from the clutch system. What I failed to understand was this: After somewhere beyond five minutes of vacuum, with each clutch pump (my wife pulling the pedal off the floor with her foot) there were a ton of bubbles coming into the reservoir. I am talking about a pot of boiling water here! I could both see and hear the bubbles rising. Where did all of these bubbles came from? Can someone please explain this to me?

After more than 20 minutes of applying vacuum, pumping the clutch, fluid changing, etc., I took the car for a drive. The first few shifts were like butter. From there the car quickly went back to its normal behavior of some shifts being great and others requiring excessive force.

Fast forward a week and I can say this. My clutch pedal hasn't stuck to the floor once, and the pedal feels consistent and easy to depress. Shifting, however, has become very slow and methodical for me. I never know if I'll get into the next gear easily or have to take my time applying more force than normal. A couple of times I have found myself unable to get into first or second gears (at least at the level of force I am comfortable applying anyway). The other morning I drove to work skipping second and fourth gears because they were so difficult to get into, but then the drive home was completely random again. *sigh*

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. I'm also curious if a very worn and sloppy feeling stock shifter (I'm thinking of upgrading to a 2009 Z06 shifter) could be either compounding the problem or actually be the problem.

Thanks all,
LO PHAT

 

It's probably pulling it in from either one of the seals or hose connections. I sincerily doubt the fluid was boiling at 15" of vacuum. The wet boiling point for DOT 3/4 at atmospheric pressure is way over 300 deg F, it's not much lower than that at 15". Have you tried bleeding the system IAW GM's method?

 

Torque tube bushings IMO

When the front one goes bad, it affects the angle at which the shaft engages. I had the same issues.

Unfortunately, you are probably gong to have to initiate some repairs. I would go ahead and change out all of the hydraulics as well as the bushings and look good and hard at your clutch disk too. Add the remote bleeder, its cheap and worth it.

If the bushings and bearings look good on the TT, then you may have a synchro problem in the trans.

 

I can certainly see this as being a possibility. Interesting....


Yep ... I wondered that myself about the air. If there wasn't air in the system before, there likely is now. Bleeding the clutch using GM's method is on my list of things to do.



I am really starting to wonder if there aren't other contibuting factors involved too. As I stated earlier, the shifter in my car seems quite worn out. I'm also wondering if the Royal Purple transmission fluid that so many have recommended is damaging the paper bocker rings in the transmission.

Today I'll be draining the synthetic stuff and going back to Valvoline Dexron III. I'll keep everyone posted on my progress, and I still welcome any additional comments or suggestions anyone might have.

Thanks everyone,
LO PHAT

 

There really isn't a whole lot in the stock shifter to go bad. The slopiness you feel is in the trans, not the shifter.

My friend, I hate to say you but I feel your chasing after a fix that is not going to happen. I would love to be wrong as heck here, I really would, because that would save you time, money and headaches.

However, I have been through the ringer with my own transmission, torque tube etc., and from what I have learned and know, air in the system is not the problem you're having.

I just today returned from my trans re-builder and have had a first hand look inside of one of these transmissions, very interesting learning experience.

I have had the trans, TT drive-line assembly in and out 7 times and waiting to reinstall it again with various issues. Hopefully that happens Tuesday when I get it back.

You have to look at everything as one complete assembly that are interdependent on each other.

No flame at all, but I feel the time you are trying to chase down a fix and having people argue over whose method of bleeding gets the best results could be better spent making plans for a repair.

Further, I would spend a little time researching clutch types, whom will do the work if not you, what questions to ask your installer, (air gap, shims, etc) to be prepared. And I would definitely be prepared for the cost of a trans rebuild or buying a used low miles one. You may not need a complete rebuild but I 'll bet one or two of the gears or synchros are worn beyond acceptable levels.

I've posted some pics so you can see exactly what you may be dealing with.

Here is the entire assembly out


Trans off the TT


My front TT bushing at 60K miles


Side by side comparison new vs. old


How it should look reinstalled


Clutch and Pressure plate


Slave with external bleeder installed


Top down on stock shifter


Bottom of stock shifter


Well I shall post no more and lurk, hoping for the best for you and would rather see you post that I was wrong and you got it all fixed with one of the bleeding methods then having to resort to what I posted.

Best of luck to you.

 

squidwards vert: Those are great pictures, and that is good information. Thank you for the post. I certainly wouldn't flame you for posting what you did.

Given that my whole transmission was rebuilt not that long ago (new forks, gears, syncros, rings, bearings, etc), I'm sort of ruling it out for now as the cause of the issue. Of course it is possible that the shop that did the work did a very poor job, but I'll cross that bridge only if I need to...


** So here is an interesting update: In January of this year I had put Royal Purple Synchromax in the transmission. I never felt that made any sort of difference, and, if anything, it might have made it worse. All of the talk on this forum about paper blocker rings had me concerned, so this morning I drained the transmission (3,100 miles on the Synchromax) and went back to regular Dexron III fluid. Amazing! I wouldn't say the shifting is perfect, but after only about 50 miles I'm getting in and out of gears without using excessive force. I'm not sure how this could be the case (and I'm skeptical the easy shifting will last), but I'll post again after a couple hundred miles of driving. *fingers crossed*

LO PHAT