My E85 as a Octane Booster Experiment
Banned Scam/Spammer
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 15,685
Likes: 1,330
From: Machineguns, because I don’t compromise
dumping gas in per ratio, then ethanol stright into the tank will give lopsided mixes for a while. With your aggressive tune having one tank almost all gas (which the fuel pump is pushing to the engine) can lead to detonation occurances.
Have you logged anyfiles with hptuners to see before/after knock retard?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,209
Likes: 33
From: Texas-out west
reports I read say 20% will cause serious damage to cars not meant for it and that is why govt is studying this very issue. why is the world would you want to use something that gets worse gas mileage, not as much power per gallon as gas and mostly uses valuable corn which is needed for almost every food product on the market and caused price of food to rise and most of all cost you more tax dollars since govt pays money to producers (read this as political from corn states) to make it possible, also oil is used to produce corn gas so know eco benefit from my research but TO EACH HIS OWN I say.
Read "gusher of lies" by Robert Bryce for some insightful information on the use of alternate fuels and getting free of foreign oil.
Read "gusher of lies" by Robert Bryce for some insightful information on the use of alternate fuels and getting free of foreign oil.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,558
Likes: 2
From: Cape Coral FL
reports I read say 20% will cause serious damage to cars not meant for it and that is why govt is studying this very issue. why is the world would you want to use something that gets worse gas mileage, not as much power per gallon as gas and mostly uses valuable corn which is needed for almost every food product on the market and caused price of food to rise and most of all cost you more tax dollars since govt pays money to producers (read this as political from corn states) to make it possible, also oil is used to produce corn gas so know eco benefit from my research but TO EACH HIS OWN I say.
Read "gusher of lies" by Robert Bryce for some insightful information on the use of alternate fuels and getting free of foreign oil.
Read "gusher of lies" by Robert Bryce for some insightful information on the use of alternate fuels and getting free of foreign oil.
Sorry I was blue from lack of breath by the time I got to the cheers.
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,147
Likes: 1
From: Mohegan Lake New York
Dang parochchial school teachers,always got that red pen in hand, punctuation nice but not necessary here on forum you may also mispell words,sharing info and getting point across our primary concern.....I find it a tougher read reading our 21 century youth inspired internet shorthand (what =wut ,cause=cuz, 2=two )Some forum members English may not be their native language,or some may not have the benefit of an education some just didn't pay attention while in school either way don't discourage any member from contributing cause you never know that guy with no commas and few periods may just have the answer to your question.........
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,450
Likes: 1,155
From: Dyer, IN
Dang parochchial school teachers,always got that red pen in hand, punctuation nice but not necessary here on forum you may also mispell words,sharing info and getting point across our primary concern.....I find it a tougher read reading our 21 century youth inspired internet shorthand (what =wut ,cause=cuz, 2=two )Some forum members English may not be their native language,or some may not have the benefit of an education some just didn't pay attention while in school either way don't discourage any member from contributing cause you never know that guy with no commas and few periods may just have the answer to your question.........
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 918
Likes: 2
From: Lewisburg TN
St. Jude Donor '10-'11-'12,'14
I have two water test kits, the first one I made up for smaller %, and Quick Fuel has one ofr pump E85 where the % of ethanol is higher.
I also test the E85 I add, and sample from the FI port after driving a while. Knowing what % you had, what size tank, and what you added you can also do math calculation and pretty fairly close.
In colder climates the ethanol % will vary to as low as 70% in winter.
The description below is an older write up I made for some friends, you can use less water (25%), just use a number that is easy to keep track of.
My made up own tester works fine.
A 50 ml is easier, but a 25 will work also. I just put in twice the amount of fuel to water, shake it, let it settle 10-15 minutes and read the bottom layer which will be the ethanol/water layer. Subtract the original water and the balance is the ethanol portion.
Sundays Example: bought 10.73 gals of E85. The sample was 10 mls water, 20 mls e85. Shook it , let it settle, then had 25 mls on the bottom layer (gas is lighter then water).
25 minus the original 10 = ~15 mls ethanol. ~15 divided by 20 original fuel amount equals around 75% ethanol which mixed in my ~25 gal fuel tank gave me a 31% ethanol equivalent in the tank.
With the tune up in it the truck is running great, almost like a 6000 # Vette!! LOL
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Instructor
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
From: The Chi
reports I read say 20% will cause serious damage to cars not meant for it and that is why govt is studying this very issue. why is the world would you want to use something that gets worse gas mileage, not as much power per gallon as gas and mostly uses valuable corn which is needed for almost every food product on the market and caused price of food to rise and most of all cost you more tax dollars since govt pays money to producers (read this as political from corn states) to make it possible, also oil is used to produce corn gas so know eco benefit from my research but TO EACH HIS OWN I say.
Read "gusher of lies" by Robert Bryce for some insightful information on the use of alternate fuels and getting free of foreign oil.
Read "gusher of lies" by Robert Bryce for some insightful information on the use of alternate fuels and getting free of foreign oil.
20% less power causes damage
No it just causes less power. The damage would be e85 dissolving natural rubber fuel parts which I doubt many cars out today still have and am 100% sure the corvette doesn't have.
The only other things I can think of is throwing a CEL because of a different reading from the O2 sensor (but your going to need a e85 tune anyway for bigger injectors and your different stoichiometric ratio)
Or E85 dissolving some crap in your fuel tank and clogging your fuel filter. Which is one of the reasons I may start pouring it in to try and fix my stupid fuel gage. In the end, your car will be cleaner, minus $10 for a fuel filter.
*sources - me, mechanical engineer
WHY:
In the end, even though the fuel offers less power, you will get a higher octane rating which will allow for more boost or a higher compression ratio. Higher compression means a more efficient/powerful engine and a less chance of your engine detonating since the fuel is harder to start to burn.
Last edited by -DLS-; May 22, 2010 at 03:11 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 918
Likes: 2
From: Lewisburg TN
St. Jude Donor '10-'11-'12,'14
Heres my take on the damage:
20% less power causes damage No it just causes less power.
The damage would be e85 dissolving natural rubber fuel parts which I doubt many cars out today still have and am 100% sure the corvette doesn't have.
The only other things I can think of is throwing a CEL because of a different reading from the O2 sensor (but your going to need a e85 tune anyway for bigger injectors and your different stoichiometric ratio)
Or E85 dissolving some crap in your fuel tank and clogging your fuel filter. Which is one of the reasons I may start pouring it in to try and fix my stupid fuel gage. In the end, your car will be cleaner, minus $10 for a fuel filter.
*sources - me, mechanical engineer
WHY:
In the end, even though it's less powerful, you will get a higher octane rating which will allow for more boost or a higher compression ratio. Higher compression means a more efficient engine and a less chance of your engine detonating since the fuel is harder to start to burn.
20% less power causes damage
No it just causes less power. The damage would be e85 dissolving natural rubber fuel parts which I doubt many cars out today still have and am 100% sure the corvette doesn't have.
The only other things I can think of is throwing a CEL because of a different reading from the O2 sensor (but your going to need a e85 tune anyway for bigger injectors and your different stoichiometric ratio)
Or E85 dissolving some crap in your fuel tank and clogging your fuel filter. Which is one of the reasons I may start pouring it in to try and fix my stupid fuel gage. In the end, your car will be cleaner, minus $10 for a fuel filter.
*sources - me, mechanical engineer
WHY:
In the end, even though it's less powerful, you will get a higher octane rating which will allow for more boost or a higher compression ratio. Higher compression means a more efficient engine and a less chance of your engine detonating since the fuel is harder to start to burn.
Before tuning I have put 25-30 % ethanol by volume in my 2003 Silverado, 2006 Trailblazer, 2000 Alero, and 2002 Z06 all non flex fuel and never had a code. The ecu read O2 in lambda and as long as the STFT/ LTFT can put in fuel they will adjust. Where you will find a limitation without tuning is high rpm because stock you run out injector. One can raise the fuel pressure or go with bigger injectors. There are cars that go to higher %'s and be OK. My 2003 Silverado is now tuned for full e85 usage and it runs great on it.
It is a incorrect to say the engine will not make power, it will make better power on alcohol, the higher the compression, the more power difference. What it wont do is get the same MPG because MPG is based on BTU's per gal. which gasoline has more the alcohol, and diesel has more then gasoline. Power? That same pump e85 has made as much as 1450 hp in a dual turbo application, cant do that with pump gas!
BTW @ 22-25% the MPG drop is not great, so one needs to do a little math and see where the breakeven point is for MPG, for HP? No contest!
Lastly you are 100% correct on E85 cleaning the system!
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
From: The Chi
whoops. What I meant is the fuel offers less power per gallon.
The higher compression or more boost will of course make more power from the engine, but you will still be burning more gas in the end to make up for the less power per gallon.
I mean $2.97 * 20% more fuel used vs 8 dollar race gas, theres no competition
The higher compression or more boost will of course make more power from the engine, but you will still be burning more gas in the end to make up for the less power per gallon.
I mean $2.97 * 20% more fuel used vs 8 dollar race gas, theres no competition
Last edited by -DLS-; May 22, 2010 at 03:12 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 918
Likes: 2
From: Lewisburg TN
St. Jude Donor '10-'11-'12,'14
whoops. What I meant is the fuel offers less power per gallon.
The higher compression or more boost will of course make more power from the engine, but you will still be burning more gas in the end to make up for the less power per gallon.
I mean $2.97 * 20% more fuel used vs 8 dollar race gas, theres no competition
The higher compression or more boost will of course make more power from the engine, but you will still be burning more gas in the end to make up for the less power per gallon.
I mean $2.97 * 20% more fuel used vs 8 dollar race gas, theres no competition
You got it!!
Safety Car
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 4,237
Likes: 11
From: Lacombe Louisiana
Seems like a lot of trouble and money to merely get to the same point as using 91 octane fuel.All of our service manuals up to and including 2010 models exclude the use of E85 unless the vehicle is designated a flex fuel car or truck.The fuel delivery systems were not designed or built to be compatible with it.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 18,048
Likes: 53
From: long Island NY
I'm assuming you would need to retune for higher octane. Just had this conversation with Doug ECS, about race fuel and he stated it wouldn't do anything for power only safety. So for a boosted car that was tuned with and for 93 octane it would not help you in the power department.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,088
Likes: 1,829
From: Metro Detroit Michigan
I'm assuming you would need to retune for higher octane. Just had this conversation with Doug ECS, about race fuel and he stated it wouldn't do anything for power only safety. So for a boosted car that was tuned with and for 93 octane it would not help you in the power department.
Gains would be minimal on a NA setup unless you're running into detonation, or have built extra compression into the engine. Advancing timing beyond 22 degrees may not increase power. It's an efficient combustion chamber, doesn't need as much advance as some other engines, and there's no benefit beyond a certain point.
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,147
Likes: 1
From: Mohegan Lake New York
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,762
Likes: 0
I run E85 in my vette and going from pump gas to E85 resulted in basically identical power curves. My tuner said in a lot of cases you pick up a little torque on the bottom end but that didn't happen for me. My dyno is in my sig.
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,582
Likes: 137
From: SoCal CA
A lot of har headed guys here but please listen guys, ethanol will NOT damage your fuel system, and ethanol MIXES almost instantly with water. Thats why racers have always loved gasohol, because it was so easy to mix. Just put e85 first in the tank and then 91 and it will mix good enough. Also, YOUR FUEL TANK HAS A BALANCING LINE. No one tank will be drained first and contain more this or that. That would be stupid and cause horrible weight distribution... Ive replaced them before and seen the balancing line. Only thing is fuel pump is on the driver side.
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,582
Likes: 137
From: SoCal CA
Maybe the e85 needed more electrolytes. (Brawndo reference)
