Camming a vette...reliability/longevity sufferes this bad really?
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From: Granby, MA
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Camming a vette...reliability/longevity sufferes this bad really?
I never really asked this just because it never really crossed my mind before seeing so many vette guys cam their motors.
I was wondering with the new parts going in....new cam, new springs, pushrods...these are obviously all aftermarket and I went with the best ones I could find and that were reasonable with price so my question is...are these parts better then the stock GM ones and if so what is the longevity of the parts?
I was sort of shocked to just find out that the springs should be checked quite often and that they probably should need changing every 30K. I was hoping for much more out of a set of $250 springs but am I dreaming? I also noticed that even a top of the line double spring set at $500 still only gets out of it about the same...30K miles.
I bought the PAC Beehive 1518s as they came highly recommended.
Going to be getting the AFR 6016 cam (mild with low lift I believe?)
Have the Texas Speed Chromoly Hardened pushrods.
I don't believe the AFR 6016 would be considered a high lift cam...but this is all sort of new to me. I only know it is consider a mild cam and the power-band comes on very low which is what I was after.
I guess where Iam going with this is that I just assumed by buying good aftermarket parts I wouldn't have to worry about things once I put them in...now learning that the springs may fail after only 30K...Iam wondering is the cam really that much more aggressive then stock. The stock springs have been known to last 300K+? Just seems like a huge loss...to go from 300K to 30K?
Sorry to be a nube on all this..still learning. I know the phrase "if you want to play, you have to pay"...I just didn't realize the huge difference when putting in aftermarket stuff vs the stock components when it comes to durability and longevity?
This is my cam card:
AFR 6016 Cam
Thanks
Jeff
I was wondering with the new parts going in....new cam, new springs, pushrods...these are obviously all aftermarket and I went with the best ones I could find and that were reasonable with price so my question is...are these parts better then the stock GM ones and if so what is the longevity of the parts?
I was sort of shocked to just find out that the springs should be checked quite often and that they probably should need changing every 30K. I was hoping for much more out of a set of $250 springs but am I dreaming? I also noticed that even a top of the line double spring set at $500 still only gets out of it about the same...30K miles.
I bought the PAC Beehive 1518s as they came highly recommended.
Going to be getting the AFR 6016 cam (mild with low lift I believe?)
Have the Texas Speed Chromoly Hardened pushrods.
I don't believe the AFR 6016 would be considered a high lift cam...but this is all sort of new to me. I only know it is consider a mild cam and the power-band comes on very low which is what I was after.
I guess where Iam going with this is that I just assumed by buying good aftermarket parts I wouldn't have to worry about things once I put them in...now learning that the springs may fail after only 30K...Iam wondering is the cam really that much more aggressive then stock. The stock springs have been known to last 300K+? Just seems like a huge loss...to go from 300K to 30K?
Sorry to be a nube on all this..still learning. I know the phrase "if you want to play, you have to pay"...I just didn't realize the huge difference when putting in aftermarket stuff vs the stock components when it comes to durability and longevity?
This is my cam card:
AFR 6016 Cam
Thanks
Jeff
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Near Jacksonville Fl.
The simple fact is any modification done to a car that will increase power will also detract from it's life period!
The Mfg. spends millions of $$$$ designing and testing what you buy with a warranty, in fact IIRC design life today is 150,000 miles.
Adding a higher lift cam with more duration and making a spring to fit in the same space will stress that spring a lot more then stock.
Yes if your going to play you must be willing to PAY!
The Mfg. spends millions of $$$$ designing and testing what you buy with a warranty, in fact IIRC design life today is 150,000 miles.
Adding a higher lift cam with more duration and making a spring to fit in the same space will stress that spring a lot more then stock.
Yes if your going to play you must be willing to PAY!
Thread Starter
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From: Granby, MA
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The simple fact is any modification done to a car that will increase power will also detract from it's life period!
The Mfg. spends millions of $$$$ designing and testing what you buy with a warranty, in fact IIRC design life today is 150,000 miles.
Adding a higher lift cam with more duration and making a spring to fit in the same space will stress that spring a lot more then stock.
Yes if your going to play you must be willing to PAY!
The Mfg. spends millions of $$$$ designing and testing what you buy with a warranty, in fact IIRC design life today is 150,000 miles.
Adding a higher lift cam with more duration and making a spring to fit in the same space will stress that spring a lot more then stock.
Yes if your going to play you must be willing to PAY!
So Iam wondering if I should back off on the lift? 224/228 581/588 lift to much? Would I be better off in the 530 range? I want to keep my low end and middle RPMs grunt and increase in that area. Iam not into a higher RPM range cam. Gains from 1500-6000 is what Iam after.
I have been reading so many different posts on cams.
The AFR 6016 seemed to be perfect for my choice, BUT if I need to go a little lower on the lift to improve durability of the valvetrain and take less stress off the springs...I will. I don't plan on ever going over 6000rpms and very rarely do runs excessive in that type of RPM range anyways...Iam all after low end torque grunt.
Last edited by XtremeVette; Jan 21, 2011 at 02:22 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: NJ
My advice to you, stop right where you are and don't cam the car. If you are worried about this stuff now, a cammed car will drive you nuts.
Have you driven or ridden in a cammed C5? The car becomes a completely different car. You will have a very loud valve train, there will be some slight low RPM bucking and surging, and the exhaust will stink to high heaven. And yes, things may break. You are much more likely to have push rod and valve spring issues, rockers are known to break as well.
Your cam isn't huge, but its definitely going to effect every aspect of the cars attitude.
To answer your question, "No" aftermarket parts are not "better" than OEM parts and aren't intended to be.
Sorry to be so direct with you but very rarely will you have an honest opinion when it comes to modded cars. People don't like to admit the thousands of dollars they spent on their car is anything but the best. And yes - I do have a cammed C5 and I like everything about it..........but the horrible stink of the exhaust.
My cam is 232/234 .595/.598
Have you driven or ridden in a cammed C5? The car becomes a completely different car. You will have a very loud valve train, there will be some slight low RPM bucking and surging, and the exhaust will stink to high heaven. And yes, things may break. You are much more likely to have push rod and valve spring issues, rockers are known to break as well.
Your cam isn't huge, but its definitely going to effect every aspect of the cars attitude.
To answer your question, "No" aftermarket parts are not "better" than OEM parts and aren't intended to be.
Sorry to be so direct with you but very rarely will you have an honest opinion when it comes to modded cars. People don't like to admit the thousands of dollars they spent on their car is anything but the best. And yes - I do have a cammed C5 and I like everything about it..........but the horrible stink of the exhaust.
My cam is 232/234 .595/.598
Last edited by Chevy Guy; Jan 21, 2011 at 03:20 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Metairie Louisiana
The Z06 has a slightly hotter cam than the LS1, so I believe you can get a cam and spring package that will work and be reliable. The Ls1 motor has been around for a while and good experienced tuner/mechanic should be able to help you accomplish your goals.
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From: Granby, MA
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I have seen the Z06 cam, the LS1 GMPP "Hotcam" and even the GMPP ASA Cam which is too radical for my tastes.
Last edited by XtremeVette; Jan 21, 2011 at 03:28 PM.
Race Director
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From: San Diego CA
I would go supercharger, like the A&A setup before I went head/cam swaps. Many years ago when I had my 68, I went through a phase when my OEM engine was heavily modified. While my car sounded incredible with headers, I had nothing but trouble. Finally, after two rebuilds, I decided to get more power the safe way - factory crate engine. That ZZ3 had at least 50-70 HP more than my 327 and never gave me any problems. It was easily a 100,000 mile+ engine.
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Thread Starter
Original Founding Member!
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: Granby, MA
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My advice to you, stop right where you are and don't cam the car. If you are worried about this stuff now, a cammed car will drive you nuts.
Have you driven or ridden in a cammed C5? The car becomes a completely different car. You will have a very loud valve train, there will be some slight low RPM bucking and surging, and the exhaust will stink to high heaven. And yes, things may break. You are much more likely to have push rod and valve spring issues, rockers are known to break as well.
Your cam isn't huge, but its definitely going to effect every aspect of the cars attitude.
To answer your question, "No" aftermarket parts are not "better" than OEM parts and aren't intended to be.
Sorry to be so direct with you but very rarely will you have an honest opinion when it comes to modded cars. People don't like to admit the thousands of dollars they spent on their car is anything but the best. And yes - I do have a cammed C5 and I like everything about it..........but the horrible stink of the exhaust.
Have you driven or ridden in a cammed C5? The car becomes a completely different car. You will have a very loud valve train, there will be some slight low RPM bucking and surging, and the exhaust will stink to high heaven. And yes, things may break. You are much more likely to have push rod and valve spring issues, rockers are known to break as well.
Your cam isn't huge, but its definitely going to effect every aspect of the cars attitude.
To answer your question, "No" aftermarket parts are not "better" than OEM parts and aren't intended to be.
Sorry to be so direct with you but very rarely will you have an honest opinion when it comes to modded cars. People don't like to admit the thousands of dollars they spent on their car is anything but the best. And yes - I do have a cammed C5 and I like everything about it..........but the horrible stink of the exhaust.
As far as a cam altering every aspect of the car...Iam not so sure that is 100% accurate. My main reason for that is I went for a drive in my buddy's fathers car and from the inside of it...you wouldn't of even known it was cammed. Idle'd fine and drove fine....this was without a tune even! The cam was put into his 98 LS1. It was a 224/228 LSA of 114. This is entirely what has swayed me for wanting to do this. Iam just concerned on the reliability of components being put it. Maybe I should be going smaller to something like the GM hotcam? to pick up more reliability. Iam not after big numbers at all. I would rather feel an increase in torque then to say yeh 435 at the rear wheels.
Last edited by XtremeVette; Jan 21, 2011 at 03:27 PM.
Team Owner
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From: NJ
Even the hotcam isn't worth it in my opinion. A cam swap has to be worth it HP wise, a LS6 cam or hot cam isn't in my opinion.
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To go through all the trouble and cost of a cam replacement for a OEM Z06 cam is a huge waste of money unless the car has a bad cam to begin with and you don't want a performance cam.
Even the hotcam isn't worth it in my opinion. A cam swap has to be worth it HP wise, a LS6 cam or hot cam isn't in my opinion.
Even the hotcam isn't worth it in my opinion. A cam swap has to be worth it HP wise, a LS6 cam or hot cam isn't in my opinion.
Team Owner
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From: NJ
Thank you Chevy guy for you advice and opinion. Although I do highly disagree with it, none the less do value it. It almost sounds as if your personal problems with your vette might have swayed your opinions as they most definitely would and should. If I can be so helpful..your smell problem sounds to me like you need the car to be much better tuned. My brothers car had the exact same problem without a cam. Tuning is definitely the key to get rid of that smell issue. Is it a rotten egg smell whenever you get on it? Usually cars with no cats do that for obvious reasons but with my brother, high flow cats and a poor tune is what his problem was.
As far as a cam altering every aspect of the car...Iam not so sure that is 100% accurate. My main reason for that is I went for a drive in my buddy's fathers car and from the inside of it...you wouldn't of even known it was cammed. Idle'd fine and drove fine....this was without a tune even! The cam was put into his 98 LS1. It was a 224/228 LSA of 114. This is entirely what has swayed me for wanting to do this. Iam just concerned on the reliability of components being put it. Maybe I should be going smaller to something like the GM hotcam? to pick up more reliability. Iam not after big numbers at all. I would rather feel an increase in torque then to say yeh 435 at the rear wheels.
As far as a cam altering every aspect of the car...Iam not so sure that is 100% accurate. My main reason for that is I went for a drive in my buddy's fathers car and from the inside of it...you wouldn't of even known it was cammed. Idle'd fine and drove fine....this was without a tune even! The cam was put into his 98 LS1. It was a 224/228 LSA of 114. This is entirely what has swayed me for wanting to do this. Iam just concerned on the reliability of components being put it. Maybe I should be going smaller to something like the GM hotcam? to pick up more reliability. Iam not after big numbers at all. I would rather feel an increase in torque then to say yeh 435 at the rear wheels.
Not to bust your chops but - it sounds like you should be doing a lot more research on cams, especially if you are considering a GM hot cam. If you are worried about low end torque, keep the stock cam or go with a small cam like a LG X1 series cam.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: Milwaukee & Long Beach WI & CA
Looking at just the lift of a cam as an indication on how quickly the valve springs will wear out is an over simplification. It's not just how much lift that cam has but also the duration and lobe profile.
For example, a cam that has a max lift of .600 inches over a 260 dergree duration is typically going to be much easier on springs than a cam that lifts .590 inches over just 220 degrees of duration. It not just how far you are moving the valve, but how quickly you are opening and closing them. The longer the duration, the more time the valve has to travel, and so you don't need slam it open or closed.
Even if two cams have the same lift and duration, the profiles can be different. The lift is just the max lift, it doesn't tell you what's going on through out the rest of the lobe. I believe the AFR cam you have uses Comp Cam XE-R lobes, which are a fairly aggressive lobe, meaning the profile will quickly lift the valve and hold it near the max lift as long as possible before allowing it to slam shut.
If you want to extend the life of the valve springs, you can get a cam with a different lobe profile such as Comp Cams XE lobes or an EPS cam.
Any of these aftermarket cams are going to have a more aggressive lobe than what GM puts on their cams and so they are going to fatigue the valve springs more quickly. No one can tell you exactly how long springs will last, so it's always best to plan on checking you valve springs periodically with an aftermarket cam particularly since a valve spring failure can wreck the whole motor. As mentioned even stock Z06's have been know to experience valve spring failure, so really any valve spring should be considered to have a limited life span.
As for driveability issues with an aftermarket cam, the 224/228 on an LS1 is well regarded as being very street friendly and with a proper tune you won't have any issue with bucking, surging, or stalling. Keep your cats and you won't have smell issues either.
For example, a cam that has a max lift of .600 inches over a 260 dergree duration is typically going to be much easier on springs than a cam that lifts .590 inches over just 220 degrees of duration. It not just how far you are moving the valve, but how quickly you are opening and closing them. The longer the duration, the more time the valve has to travel, and so you don't need slam it open or closed.
Even if two cams have the same lift and duration, the profiles can be different. The lift is just the max lift, it doesn't tell you what's going on through out the rest of the lobe. I believe the AFR cam you have uses Comp Cam XE-R lobes, which are a fairly aggressive lobe, meaning the profile will quickly lift the valve and hold it near the max lift as long as possible before allowing it to slam shut.
If you want to extend the life of the valve springs, you can get a cam with a different lobe profile such as Comp Cams XE lobes or an EPS cam.
Any of these aftermarket cams are going to have a more aggressive lobe than what GM puts on their cams and so they are going to fatigue the valve springs more quickly. No one can tell you exactly how long springs will last, so it's always best to plan on checking you valve springs periodically with an aftermarket cam particularly since a valve spring failure can wreck the whole motor. As mentioned even stock Z06's have been know to experience valve spring failure, so really any valve spring should be considered to have a limited life span.
As for driveability issues with an aftermarket cam, the 224/228 on an LS1 is well regarded as being very street friendly and with a proper tune you won't have any issue with bucking, surging, or stalling. Keep your cats and you won't have smell issues either.
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: NJ
Yeh..I think we are just after 2 different things is all. I do not want a big or even med size cam. Just looking for something a little bit bigger then stock to boost the 1500-6000rpm torque levels. Put you back in the seat more. Want a nice mild chop that you know from the back end...the car is cammed but that does not shake the car badly at all. Later on down the road the cam would need to also be blower friendly/ready...so essentially a blower cam/mild cam is what Iam after.
I'm not "after" anything, I already have it. You asked for advice and obviously don't want to hear it.
I'm only going by the info you posted. The cam on the card you posted isn't going to make you happy.
Search youtube for AFR 6016, you are going to feel that cam.
*EDIT*
You should look at the LG X1 series cams, or a real blower cam like ECS has.
Last edited by Chevy Guy; Jan 21, 2011 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Added vid of G5X1
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I'm not "after" anything, I already have it. You asked for advice and obviously don't want to hear it.
I'm only going by the info you posted. The cam on the card you posted isn't going to make you happy.
Search youtube for AFR 6016, you are going to feel that cam.
*EDIT*
You should look at the LG X1 series cams, or a real blower cam like ECS has.
I'm only going by the info you posted. The cam on the card you posted isn't going to make you happy.
Search youtube for AFR 6016, you are going to feel that cam.
*EDIT*
You should look at the LG X1 series cams, or a real blower cam like ECS has.
LG X1? That is more radical then the cam on the card is.
LG G5X1 228/232 .588 .574 112/114
The cam on that card is straight from Tony Mamo at AFR ...that is the 6016.
I did just shoot Tony @ AFR a pretty lengthy PM...so hopefully get his opinion on it. I'll post what he says...thanks for everybody's input...I do appreciate it.
Last edited by XtremeVette; Jan 21, 2011 at 04:05 PM.
Thread Starter
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From: Granby, MA
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Looking at just the lift of a cam as an indication on how quickly the valve springs will wear out is an over simplification. It's not just how much lift that cam has but also the duration and lobe profile.
For example, a cam that has a max lift of .600 inches over a 260 dergree duration is typically going to be much easier on springs than a cam that lifts .590 inches over just 220 degrees of duration. It not just how far you are moving the valve, but how quickly you are opening and closing them. The longer the duration, the more time the valve has to travel, and so you don't need slam it open or closed.
Even if two cams have the same lift and duration, the profiles can be different. The lift is just the max lift, it doesn't tell you what's going on through out the rest of the lobe. I believe the AFR cam you have uses Comp Cam XE-R lobes, which are a fairly aggressive lobe, meaning the profile will quickly lift the valve and hold it near the max lift as long as possible before allowing it to slam shut.
If you want to extend the life of the valve springs, you can get a cam with a different lobe profile such as Comp Cams XE lobes or an EPS cam.
Any of these aftermarket cams are going to have a more aggressive lobe than what GM puts on their cams and so they are going to fatigue the valve springs more quickly. No one can tell you exactly how long springs will last, so it's always best to plan on checking you valve springs periodically with an aftermarket cam particularly since a valve spring failure can wreck the whole motor. As mentioned even stock Z06's have been know to experience valve spring failure, so really any valve spring should be considered to have a limited life span.
As for driveability issues with an aftermarket cam, the 224/228 on an LS1 is well regarded as being very street friendly and with a proper tune you won't have any issue with bucking, surging, or stalling. Keep your cats and you won't have smell issues either.
For example, a cam that has a max lift of .600 inches over a 260 dergree duration is typically going to be much easier on springs than a cam that lifts .590 inches over just 220 degrees of duration. It not just how far you are moving the valve, but how quickly you are opening and closing them. The longer the duration, the more time the valve has to travel, and so you don't need slam it open or closed.
Even if two cams have the same lift and duration, the profiles can be different. The lift is just the max lift, it doesn't tell you what's going on through out the rest of the lobe. I believe the AFR cam you have uses Comp Cam XE-R lobes, which are a fairly aggressive lobe, meaning the profile will quickly lift the valve and hold it near the max lift as long as possible before allowing it to slam shut.
If you want to extend the life of the valve springs, you can get a cam with a different lobe profile such as Comp Cams XE lobes or an EPS cam.
Any of these aftermarket cams are going to have a more aggressive lobe than what GM puts on their cams and so they are going to fatigue the valve springs more quickly. No one can tell you exactly how long springs will last, so it's always best to plan on checking you valve springs periodically with an aftermarket cam particularly since a valve spring failure can wreck the whole motor. As mentioned even stock Z06's have been know to experience valve spring failure, so really any valve spring should be considered to have a limited life span.
As for driveability issues with an aftermarket cam, the 224/228 on an LS1 is well regarded as being very street friendly and with a proper tune you won't have any issue with bucking, surging, or stalling. Keep your cats and you won't have smell issues either.
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From your stated goals, I believe the cam you chose is perfect. With good quality aftermarket springs, it'll be very reliable, compared to stock. I honestly don't get Chevy Guy's problem, and as far as his opinions, he's actually recommending a larger cam than you chose. If you want max longevity, and a quieter cam, you'll need a cam with more conservative lobes, but I don't believe it's neccesary. BTW, exhaust stink is caused by cam overlap, and as long as whatever cam you chose has close to zero overlap, then stink won't be a problem. I just changed from a G5X-1 sized cam, to a "blower" cam. My overlap went from plus 6 deg. to -4, and even with cats and a good tune, I had stink@ idle. None with the new cam.
Last edited by zeevette; Jan 21, 2011 at 04:44 PM.
Thread Starter
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From: Granby, MA
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From your stated goals, I believe the cam you chose is perfect. With good quality aftermarket springs, it'll be very reliable, compared to stock. I honestly don't get Chevy Guy's problem, and as far as his opinions, he's actually recommending a larger cam than you chose. If you want max longevity, and a quieter cam, you'll need a cam with more conservative lobes, but I don't believe it's neccesary. BTW, exhaust stink is caused by cam overlap, and as long as whatever cam you chose has close to zero overlap, then stink won't be a problem. I just changed from a G5X-1 sized cam, to a "blower" cam. My overlap went from plus 6 deg. to -4, and even with cats and a good tune, I had stink@ idle. None with the new cam.
Last edited by XtremeVette; Jan 21, 2011 at 05:11 PM.
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From: Granby, MA
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This is what I found:
1998 - 2000 LS1 Fbody
202/210 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.496" / 0.496" int/exh lift
116 LSA
2001 - 2002 LS1 Fbody
197/207 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.467" / 0.479" int/exh lift
116 LSA
2001 LS6 cam
207/217 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.525" / 0.525" int/exh lift
116 LSA
2002+ LS6 cam
204/218 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.551" / 0.547" int/exh lift
117 LSA
GMPP Hot Cam
218/227 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.525" / 0.525" int/exh lift
112 LSA
GMPP ASA Cam
226/236 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.525" / 0.525" int/exh lift
110 LSA
6.0 LQ9
207/196 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.479" / 0.467" int/exh lift
116 LSA
5.3 LM7
190/191 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.466" / 0.457" int/exh lift
114 LSA
Complete link here:
http://www.smokemup.com/tech/ls1.php
1998 - 2000 LS1 Fbody
202/210 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.496" / 0.496" int/exh lift
116 LSA
2001 - 2002 LS1 Fbody
197/207 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.467" / 0.479" int/exh lift
116 LSA
2001 LS6 cam
207/217 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.525" / 0.525" int/exh lift
116 LSA
2002+ LS6 cam
204/218 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.551" / 0.547" int/exh lift
117 LSA
GMPP Hot Cam
218/227 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.525" / 0.525" int/exh lift
112 LSA
GMPP ASA Cam
226/236 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.525" / 0.525" int/exh lift
110 LSA
6.0 LQ9
207/196 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.479" / 0.467" int/exh lift
116 LSA
5.3 LM7
190/191 int/exh @ 0.05" duration
0.466" / 0.457" int/exh lift
114 LSA
Complete link here:
http://www.smokemup.com/tech/ls1.php
Last edited by XtremeVette; Jan 21, 2011 at 05:17 PM.