What programmer to use? Are they worth it?
Racer
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (ToplessTexan)
I think it has some educational value (beyond the performance tuning value) for the hobbyist that wants to learn more about how their car works. It's not something that would interest the guy who gives his keys and a check to his tuner.
If you are the latter then stick with an custom tuning or a powerloader. :D
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 830
Likes: 0
From: Pasadena MD
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (C5XTASY)
Try a Hypertech III. Set it as follows:
2-3 shift +5 mph
[Modified by C5XTASY, 9:34 AM 4/30/2002]
2-3 shift +5 mph
[Modified by C5XTASY, 9:34 AM 4/30/2002]
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,565
Likes: 2
From: Chicagoland Illinois
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (jawski)
I think you have helped me meake my mind up on this as well...I am going to stick with the stock program for now...my car has very little to nothing modded and until I decide to start doing that, I think the stock program is going to have to do... :chevy :seeya
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,949
Likes: 10
From: Monticello MN
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (ToplessTexan)
I'll offer the fact based observation :) that the HPP3 makes it's greatest changes in force motor current at intermediate throttle, less at high and low throttle (but still changed.)
I don't know why anyone would expect lower ETs or higher traps with *just* firmer shifts though. A firmer shift is not the same as a shorter shift.
I don't know why anyone would expect lower ETs or higher traps with *just* firmer shifts though. A firmer shift is not the same as a shorter shift.
1) I understand that a quicker shift can be had by changing the shift solenoid timing. That's a given. However, how much of a quicker shift are we talking about? I don't really have a feel for the time factor involved.
2) The HPP III adjusts shift firmness. Now, when pressure is increased, the clutches slip less and lock up quicker. Therefore, less time is spent at the shift with slipping clutches, thereby applying more power to the wheels sooner than without the increased pressure. If the total time spent disengaging and reengaging the clutches is less, thereby applying more power to the ground sooner, how can that not be equated to a "quicker shift"? The effect seems the same.
Ed
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,154
Likes: 1
From: Murphy TX
Cruise-In II Veteran
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (C5XTASY)
Stock durations are around ~400-600ms. The 2-3 is the nasty long shift. I've shortened mine by as much as 200ms, though not across the board. You're right that increasing line pressure decreases clutch slippage and things happen faster, but something still has to start and stop the shift. It's really the shift duration table that defines these target durations. There are some adaptive transmission parameters (not unlike the fuel trims) that are used to fine tune line pressure based on recent shift durations and how far off target they are.
But don't take my word for it. :) You can always experiment w/ different firmness settings at the track and let your ET decide.
But don't take my word for it. :) You can always experiment w/ different firmness settings at the track and let your ET decide.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 830
Likes: 0
From: Pasadena MD
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (C5XTASY)
:rolleyes: I think I'll try the + 200 RPM :rolleyes:
What a strange post. :confused:
[Modified by C5XTASY, 9:56 PM 5/1/2002]
What a strange post. :confused:
[Modified by C5XTASY, 9:56 PM 5/1/2002]
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Top 10 Most Expensive Corvettes Ever Sold on Bring A Trailer
Brett Foote
10 Things Every Corvette Owner Needs (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
8 Most "Only Corvette Owners Understand" Quirks and Problems
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Reasons the C6 Z06 is Still A Performance Benchmark After 20 Years
Joe Kucinski
How Much Horsepower Every Corvette Engine "LOST" in 1972
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 DOs and DON'Ts for Protecting Your Convertible Top!
Michael S. Palmer
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,949
Likes: 10
From: Monticello MN
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (jawski)
:rolleyes: I think I'll try the + 200 RPM :rolleyes:
What a strange post. :confused:
[Modified by C5XTASY, 9:56 PM 5/1/2002]
1 MPH = 200 RPM :D
What a strange post. :confused:
[Modified by C5XTASY, 9:56 PM 5/1/2002]
1 MPH = 200 RPM :D
Ed
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,949
Likes: 10
From: Monticello MN
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (ToplessTexan)
Stock durations are around ~400-600ms. The 2-3 is the nasty long shift. I've shortened mine by as much as 200ms, though not across the board. You're right that increasing line pressure decreases clutch slippage and things happen faster, but something still has to start and stop the shift. It's really the shift duration table that defines these target durations. There are some adaptive transmission parameters (not unlike the fuel trims) that are used to fine tune line pressure based on recent shift durations and how far off target they are.
But don't take my word for it. :) You can always experiment w/ different firmness settings at the track and let your ET decide.
But don't take my word for it. :) You can always experiment w/ different firmness settings at the track and let your ET decide.
1) I probably should have said less clutch slippage DURING the shift, which I assumed would be a positive thing as far as applying more average power to the wheels during the shifting process. That's what my assumptions were based on. (Still seems to make sense to me. Oh well. :))
2) On the adaptive aspect of the transmission, regarding line pressure vs shift duration, does it "learn" out a line pressure increase (e.g. Hypertech, LS1.Edit, PLII, etc.) at part throttle, with WOT being an "Open loop" fixed setting, just as it does for fuel trims? What does it use for feedback; line pressure or shift duration?
I am impressed with the .2 second shifting time reduction on the 2-3 shift you were able to achieve. That's more than I would have imagined possible on one shift. What were you able to do on the 1-2 shift? Oops...I guess that's three things. :D
Thanks a lot! Later...
Ed
[Modified by C5XTASY, 9:05 AM 5/3/2002]
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,154
Likes: 1
From: Murphy TX
Cruise-In II Veteran
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (C5XTASY)
The 1-2 isn't as bad, so not so aggressive there, maybe at most 100 ms.
The feedback is shift duration deviation, the response to it is line pressure adjustments. I wouldn't draw too many analogies with the fuel trimming system beyond the notion of a feedback based adaptive control system. My impression is that the fuel delivery system is necessarily more complex.
<soapbox>
I hate to see the term "learning" applied to adaptive control systems like this. Learning implies acquiring and utilizing previously unknown information. Since these systems simply adapt within well defined constraints (and :U otherwise) I'd hardly call them "learning" systems.
</soapbox>
We are way off topic again. :)
[Modified by ToplessTexan, 10:37 AM 5/4/2002]
The feedback is shift duration deviation, the response to it is line pressure adjustments. I wouldn't draw too many analogies with the fuel trimming system beyond the notion of a feedback based adaptive control system. My impression is that the fuel delivery system is necessarily more complex.
<soapbox>
I hate to see the term "learning" applied to adaptive control systems like this. Learning implies acquiring and utilizing previously unknown information. Since these systems simply adapt within well defined constraints (and :U otherwise) I'd hardly call them "learning" systems.
</soapbox>
We are way off topic again. :)
[Modified by ToplessTexan, 10:37 AM 5/4/2002]
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,949
Likes: 10
From: Monticello MN
Re: What programmer to use? Are they worth it? (ToplessTexan)
<soapbox>
I hate to see the term "learning" applied to adaptive control systems like this. Learning implies acquiring and utilizing previously unknown information. Since these systems simply adapt within well defined constraints (and :U otherwise) I'd hardly call them "learning" systems.
</soapbox>
We are way off topic again. :)
I hate to see the term "learning" applied to adaptive control systems like this. Learning implies acquiring and utilizing previously unknown information. Since these systems simply adapt within well defined constraints (and :U otherwise) I'd hardly call them "learning" systems.
</soapbox>
We are way off topic again. :)
Ed
[Modified by C5XTASY, 11:00 AM 5/4/2002]
