Heads/Headers/ls6 Intake swap..running like ****.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
Found a thread where a guy had the same exact problem as me after his header install.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...r-install.html
He simply crossed his 02 sensors, but again, I know for a fact that is impossible to cross the fronts with these kooks
. I wish it was that easy.
**Edit**
Wait a minute....the connections are impossible to criss-cross, but maybe the 02 sensors are side dependent? There is definitely a possibility I put the o2 sensors in the wrong side.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...r-install.html
He simply crossed his 02 sensors, but again, I know for a fact that is impossible to cross the fronts with these kooks
. I wish it was that easy.**Edit**
Wait a minute....the connections are impossible to criss-cross, but maybe the 02 sensors are side dependent? There is definitely a possibility I put the o2 sensors in the wrong side.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
One more thing...
I noticed the cam sensor and the map sensor had almost identical connectors...is it possible to mix these up? It seemed only one fit...but you never know.
*Edit*
Looks like you can't mix them up.
I noticed the cam sensor and the map sensor had almost identical connectors...is it possible to mix these up? It seemed only one fit...but you never know.
*Edit*
Looks like you can't mix them up
.
Last edited by mchicia1; Jun 28, 2011 at 10:26 AM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
I don't remember taking one off the drivers side block? There were two on the passenger side block right near the header primaries...the negative battery cable as well as one more black wire.
Where is the one you speak off on the driver side of the block? I did notice I had an empty bolt hole and one extra bolt that is on the block near the alternator. I did search for any loose wires but didn't find any. That would be amazing if a wire does indeed go there and that is my problem.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
Here is a good diagram...
Yeah looks like the drivers side ground is on the rear of the block...I never touched that.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...e-grounds.html
Yeah looks like the drivers side ground is on the rear of the block...I never touched that.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...e-grounds.html
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
Also, are the coil packs side dependent? When I Removed them I laid them down in the truck on their respective sides (at least I think I did).
If they are side dependent, is there anything identifying which side goes where?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 22,025
Likes: 192
From: At the beach in little Rhody
Well I had the heads off, so maybe that is why I didn't need to? They just slipped right in.
Also, are the coil packs side dependent? When I Removed them I laid them down in the truck on their respective sides (at least I think I did).
If they are side dependent, is there anything identifying which side goes where?
Also, are the coil packs side dependent? When I Removed them I laid them down in the truck on their respective sides (at least I think I did).
If they are side dependent, is there anything identifying which side goes where?
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Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
Heres another thought...
If it were my 02 sensors, wouldn't it idle fine at cold start? I thought the 02 sensors only adjusted fueling after the car warms up and is put into closed loop? Should the maf and iat be taking care of the fueling at cold start? Maybe I should try to get the car warmed up?
If it were my 02 sensors, wouldn't it idle fine at cold start? I thought the 02 sensors only adjusted fueling after the car warms up and is put into closed loop? Should the maf and iat be taking care of the fueling at cold start? Maybe I should try to get the car warmed up?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,375
Likes: 328
From: CA.
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15
Heres another thought...
If it were my 02 sensors, wouldn't it idle fine at cold start? I thought the 02 sensors only adjusted fueling after the car warms up and is put into closed loop? Should the maf and iat be taking care of the fueling at cold start? Maybe I should try to get the car warmed up?
If it were my 02 sensors, wouldn't it idle fine at cold start? I thought the 02 sensors only adjusted fueling after the car warms up and is put into closed loop? Should the maf and iat be taking care of the fueling at cold start? Maybe I should try to get the car warmed up?
They are turned OFF and just being heated---has NO affect on fuel--
TR-6 to me are way too cold for a stock cammed non-NOS-NON SC engine------I would rec. TR55 or TR5 gapped at .040
Any air intake leak in the air inlet system will make it die when starting--make sure the clamps are all sealed and the A.I.R. tube is installed or plugged
All the vaucuum hoses are hooked up-
The IAT is used for timing deducts and not for fueling or any starting senario ( may used in Charge temp blending for fueling but not on start up)
Last edited by tblu92; Jun 28, 2011 at 11:40 AM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
YES---when started dead cold-- it runs in open loop til the ECT reaches 140* before it changes to closed loop-- after warmed it switches to a timer -usually like 20 seconds --When started it is in "Open Loop" and does NOT use any 02 data-
TR-6 to me are way too cold for a stock headed/cammed non-NOS-NON SC engine------I would rec. TR55 or TR5 gapped at .040
Any air intake leak in the air inlet system will make it die when starting--make sure the clamps are all sealed and the A.I.R. tube is installed-
All the vaucuum hoses are hooked up-
The IAT is used for timing deducts and not for fueling or any starting senario ( may used in Charge temp blending for fueling but not on start up)
TR-6 to me are way too cold for a stock headed/cammed non-NOS-NON SC engine------I would rec. TR55 or TR5 gapped at .040
Any air intake leak in the air inlet system will make it die when starting--make sure the clamps are all sealed and the A.I.R. tube is installed-
All the vaucuum hoses are hooked up-
The IAT is used for timing deducts and not for fueling or any starting senario ( may used in Charge temp blending for fueling but not on start up)
As for the air intake leak, the clamps are tight on the maf and the TB. I did leave the top cover of the vararam loose though, but that will not cause this issue I am 100% positive because it is before the maf anyway. At worst, some of the air coming in is just not going through the air filter, no big deal.
I am going to go home at lunch and reroute my rear 02 sensor wires (just in case, you never know right?). Then I will start it again and try to reach 140 degrees and see if anything changes.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,375
Likes: 328
From: CA.
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15
Most common tuning issue on hard statring or surging engines with hds/cam hdrs is thet run too RICH when starting
-sorta what you said about the plugs ( blk)
To fix --try going to the "Open loop normal" fuel table--and in the lower fuel (start up) areas and the ECT temps from like 40* to 284* try leaning it down to something like 15.5 and see if that helps any--
If you immediately see a differance you are on the right track--and keep adjusting on it--
I have my 98' hds/cam/hdrs car set to 16.12 in open loop in the strt up areas to get it to start-- save the original tune so you can go back to it if this doesn't work---
It it's rich this will fix it--unless it's something else like a pigtail or mechanical issue
11.1 is not much over a stock Z06's 10.75 compression---If it's a DD type car--too cold of a plug will foul out easier and need to be replaced more often----
Regardless of what you read--There is NO HP in spark plugs from one brand or design to another
The most important thing with plugs is " the correct heat range"
When you see these new plugs claim 8 HP gains-- by using their plugs---Chances are ANY plug would have made more power because the old ones were just bad !!!---
-sorta what you said about the plugs ( blk)
To fix --try going to the "Open loop normal" fuel table--and in the lower fuel (start up) areas and the ECT temps from like 40* to 284* try leaning it down to something like 15.5 and see if that helps any--
If you immediately see a differance you are on the right track--and keep adjusting on it--
I have my 98' hds/cam/hdrs car set to 16.12 in open loop in the strt up areas to get it to start-- save the original tune so you can go back to it if this doesn't work---
It it's rich this will fix it--unless it's something else like a pigtail or mechanical issue
11.1 is not much over a stock Z06's 10.75 compression---If it's a DD type car--too cold of a plug will foul out easier and need to be replaced more often----
Regardless of what you read--There is NO HP in spark plugs from one brand or design to another
The most important thing with plugs is " the correct heat range"
When you see these new plugs claim 8 HP gains-- by using their plugs---Chances are ANY plug would have made more power because the old ones were just bad !!!---
Last edited by tblu92; Jun 28, 2011 at 12:06 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
Most common tuning issue on hard statring or surging engines with hds/cam hdrs is thet run too RICH when starting
-sorta what you said about the plugs ( blk)
To fix --try going to the "Open loop normal" fuel table--and in the lower fuel (start up) areas and the ECT temps from like 40* to 284* try leaning it down to something like 15.5 and see if that helps any--
If you immediately see a differance you are on the right track--and keep adjusting on it--
I have my 98' hds/cam/hdrs car set to 16.12 in open loop in the strt up areas to get it to start-- save the original tune so you can go back to it if this doesn't work---
It it's rich this will fix it--unless it's something else like a pigtail or mechanical issue
11.1 is not much over a stock Z06's 10.75 compression---If it's a DD type car--too cold of a plug will foul out easier and need to be replaced more often----
Regardless of what you read--There is NO HP in spark plugs from one brand or design to another
The most important thing with plugs is " the correct heat range"
When you see these new plugs claim 8 HP gains-- by using their plugs---Chances are ANY plug would have made more power because the old ones were just bad !!!---
-sorta what you said about the plugs ( blk)
To fix --try going to the "Open loop normal" fuel table--and in the lower fuel (start up) areas and the ECT temps from like 40* to 284* try leaning it down to something like 15.5 and see if that helps any--
If you immediately see a differance you are on the right track--and keep adjusting on it--
I have my 98' hds/cam/hdrs car set to 16.12 in open loop in the strt up areas to get it to start-- save the original tune so you can go back to it if this doesn't work---
It it's rich this will fix it--unless it's something else like a pigtail or mechanical issue
11.1 is not much over a stock Z06's 10.75 compression---If it's a DD type car--too cold of a plug will foul out easier and need to be replaced more often----
Regardless of what you read--There is NO HP in spark plugs from one brand or design to another
The most important thing with plugs is " the correct heat range"
When you see these new plugs claim 8 HP gains-- by using their plugs---Chances are ANY plug would have made more power because the old ones were just bad !!!---
Compression check and spark check after work today. Hopefully we find something and hopefully it is just the spark and not compression cause that means I'm tearing it all down again.
Luckily my tuner can come over on the weekend to help me debug it, but hopefully I figure it out before then. He also suggested it may be running in limp mode. How can I determine if that is the case?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 22,025
Likes: 192
From: At the beach in little Rhody
If the compression is low, I would verify pushrod length before tearing into it again. By my calculations, you have over 0.110" preload. It should be OK, but again I would double check if the compression comes up low.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
Ok guys...verified spark on all 8 cylinders. Verified fuel on all 8 cylinders. Ran a compression test...FIVE DEAD CYLINDERS AND THREE VERY LOW.
So this is what I did to rule out a head gasket. I kept the compression checker in a known dead cylinder. I took out the exhaust rocker and pushrod completely...I then set my pushrod length checker to 7.250" and stuck that into the intake rocker and torqued it down to 22 ft/lbs. I cranked the car just one time, didn't even need to go more than that, and got INSTANT GOOD compression.
So it must be pushrod length!!
So two things...
1) Do you think I damaged anything? I probably didn't contact the pistons right?
2) How the eff do you measure PR length correctly? Because I used the EO/IC method and counted the turns and got 1.75 which said that was ok but obviously that was way off. So I need to use the method where you torque the rocker down and spin the PR checker inside the rocker already. But that seems very difficult. I am thinking I will set the PR at a given length then just torque the rocker down and see if the pushrod moves the lifter down at all. If it does, then ill keep shortening it until it just barely compresses the lifter then I know I have zero or close to zero lash. Sound good?
So this is what I did to rule out a head gasket. I kept the compression checker in a known dead cylinder. I took out the exhaust rocker and pushrod completely...I then set my pushrod length checker to 7.250" and stuck that into the intake rocker and torqued it down to 22 ft/lbs. I cranked the car just one time, didn't even need to go more than that, and got INSTANT GOOD compression.
So it must be pushrod length!!
So two things...
1) Do you think I damaged anything? I probably didn't contact the pistons right?
2) How the eff do you measure PR length correctly? Because I used the EO/IC method and counted the turns and got 1.75 which said that was ok but obviously that was way off. So I need to use the method where you torque the rocker down and spin the PR checker inside the rocker already. But that seems very difficult. I am thinking I will set the PR at a given length then just torque the rocker down and see if the pushrod moves the lifter down at all. If it does, then ill keep shortening it until it just barely compresses the lifter then I know I have zero or close to zero lash. Sound good?
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 22,025
Likes: 192
From: At the beach in little Rhody
Ok guys...verified spark on all 8 cylinders. Verified fuel on all 8 cylinders. Ran a compression test...FIVE DEAD CYLINDERS AND THREE VERY LOW.
So this is what I did to rule out a head gasket. I kept the compression checker in a known dead cylinder. I took out the exhaust rocker and pushrod completely...I then set my pushrod length checker to 7.250" and stuck that into the intake rocker and torqued it down to 22 ft/lbs. I cranked the car just one time, didn't even need to go more than that, and got INSTANT GOOD compression.
So it must be pushrod length!!
So two things...
1) Do you think I damaged anything? I probably didn't contact the pistons right?
2) How the eff do you measure PR length correctly? Because I used the EO/IC method and counted the turns and got 1.75 which said that was ok but obviously that was way off. So I need to use the method where you torque the rocker down and spin the PR checker inside the rocker already. But that seems very difficult. I am thinking I will set the PR at a given length then just torque the rocker down and see if the pushrod moves the lifter down at all. If it does, then ill keep shortening it until it just barely compresses the lifter then I know I have zero or close to zero lash. Sound good?
So this is what I did to rule out a head gasket. I kept the compression checker in a known dead cylinder. I took out the exhaust rocker and pushrod completely...I then set my pushrod length checker to 7.250" and stuck that into the intake rocker and torqued it down to 22 ft/lbs. I cranked the car just one time, didn't even need to go more than that, and got INSTANT GOOD compression.
So it must be pushrod length!!
So two things...
1) Do you think I damaged anything? I probably didn't contact the pistons right?
2) How the eff do you measure PR length correctly? Because I used the EO/IC method and counted the turns and got 1.75 which said that was ok but obviously that was way off. So I need to use the method where you torque the rocker down and spin the PR checker inside the rocker already. But that seems very difficult. I am thinking I will set the PR at a given length then just torque the rocker down and see if the pushrod moves the lifter down at all. If it does, then ill keep shortening it until it just barely compresses the lifter then I know I have zero or close to zero lash. Sound good?
Hope it all works out
How to measure using an adjustable pushrod
Last edited by vettenuts; Jun 29, 2011 at 05:30 AM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
I had a suspicion that might be the case, but at least it's an easy fix. With the stock cam, I doubt there is damage unless they were hung open a lot but since it started they were likely just off the seat. Also, since you didn't touch the cam there is no concern with cam timing error, etc. Here is a link on how to measure. However, didn't you mention you had a shorter set as well as the ones you have installed?
Hope it all works out
How to measure using an adjustable pushrod
Hope it all works out
How to measure using an adjustable pushrod
Yeah I am going to use the zero lash method...it is tedious but at least it will be right.
Yeah I agree, they were probably just off the seat since some other cylinders had compression. So hopefully I did not smack a piston. No did not have a shorter set, when I measured I got between a 7.350 and 7.375 pushrod, so I chose the longer one. Actually it was probably better that I did because the 7.350 would have likely been too long too but I wouldn't have suspected it because the car would have run fine. So blessing in disguise...I bet I will need a 7.3 or 7.325...seems awfully short doesnt it? Every car is different I guess.
Last edited by mchicia1; Jun 29, 2011 at 09:33 AM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
Measured just now...did it on 4 separate valves.
I came up with 7.300. I got around 7.225 or 7.250 for zero lash. I then did the turns method and got around 1.5 turns with the 7.3s. I got about 2 turns with the 7.325's. This makes sense to me because if 7.375 was too long, 7.350 would barely be in range with too much preload...subtract some preload (.050) and you get 7.300.
One thing I noticed is that 14 of the lifters I could not budge up and down at all, but 2 of them I could. Normal or are some collapsed? To me it seems the lifter would be under a lot of stress if the pushrod was too long but I could be wrong.
I came up with 7.300. I got around 7.225 or 7.250 for zero lash. I then did the turns method and got around 1.5 turns with the 7.3s. I got about 2 turns with the 7.325's. This makes sense to me because if 7.375 was too long, 7.350 would barely be in range with too much preload...subtract some preload (.050) and you get 7.300.
One thing I noticed is that 14 of the lifters I could not budge up and down at all, but 2 of them I could. Normal or are some collapsed? To me it seems the lifter would be under a lot of stress if the pushrod was too long but I could be wrong.
Last edited by mchicia1; Jun 29, 2011 at 02:24 PM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 9
From: Morrisville PA
Ah crap, looks like no matter what the lifter is supposed to be compressable....
I think I may have collapsed every one of my lifters. I can only depress two of them...the others are hard as a rock..I can't even move the pushrod an inch.
I think I may have collapsed every one of my lifters
. I can only depress two of them...the others are hard as a rock..I can't even move the pushrod an inch.