M12 rebuilt, now have issues
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 277
Likes: 29
From: Gretna, NE
M12 rebuilt, now have issues
UPDATE: see post #20
So I had a shop rebuild my transmission in my 02 Z with the Tick Performance level 3 extreme Viper rebuild kit. Now I can't get it into 5th gear unless I sit there and jiggle it and it will finally work itself in and fall right in. Car running or not.
Also it grinds if I downshift into 3rd anywhere above 40 mph. This is only on the down shifts. I can run it 1st-4th no problem. 6th is also no problem.
I had a new stage 3 Monster clutch installed only a couple thousand miles ago with new master and slave cylinders. After talking with Tick Performance they recommended I bleed the clutch in case there was air in the lines. Well I bled through about 20oz and still no change.
Has anyone else experienced this or is this just another case in my string of bad luck with cars and needs to go back to the shop so they can fix this issue?
Oh and the transmission whines under light acceleration.
Any input appreciated.
Thanks
So I had a shop rebuild my transmission in my 02 Z with the Tick Performance level 3 extreme Viper rebuild kit. Now I can't get it into 5th gear unless I sit there and jiggle it and it will finally work itself in and fall right in. Car running or not.
Also it grinds if I downshift into 3rd anywhere above 40 mph. This is only on the down shifts. I can run it 1st-4th no problem. 6th is also no problem.
I had a new stage 3 Monster clutch installed only a couple thousand miles ago with new master and slave cylinders. After talking with Tick Performance they recommended I bleed the clutch in case there was air in the lines. Well I bled through about 20oz and still no change.
Has anyone else experienced this or is this just another case in my string of bad luck with cars and needs to go back to the shop so they can fix this issue?
Oh and the transmission whines under light acceleration.
Any input appreciated.
Thanks
Last edited by JCox23; Nov 4, 2012 at 12:55 PM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 277
Likes: 29
From: Gretna, NE
That's what I'm thinking but they want me to put a couple hundred miles on it before I send it back to them. He even said he'd never had one do that before 
o well ill do what they ask as long are they'll cover all the repairs I guess.
o well ill do what they ask as long are they'll cover all the repairs I guess.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 20,030
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From: Wylie TX --> Less is More, except under the hood !
You need to use the standard adjustment procedure from the SM. I've posted it before but here it is so you don't have to search.
1] Apply the parking brake.
2] Remove the shift control closeout boot. Refer to Shift Control Shift Closeout Boot Replacement .
3] Place the shifter into NEUTRAL.
4] Press down to engage the shift control neutral lock pin.
5] Loosen the transmission shift rod clamp bolt.
6] Loosen the shift control mounting bolts.
7] Check that the shift control locator (on the underside of the shift control) is installed into the shifter bracket on the side of the driveline support assembly.
Notice
Use the correct fastener in the correct location. Replacement fasteners must be the correct part number for that application. Fasteners requiring replacement or fasteners requiring the use of thread locking compound or sealant are identified in the service procedure. Do not use paints, lubricants, or corrosion inhibitors on fasteners or fastener joint surfaces unless specified. These coatings affect fastener torque and joint clamping force and may damage the fastener. Use the correct tightening sequence and specifications when installing fasteners in order to avoid damage to parts and systems.
8] Tighten the shift control mounting bolts. Tighten the shift control mounting bolts to 30 N·m (22 lb ft).
9] Tighten the transmission shift rod clamp bolt. Tighten the transmission shift rod clamp bolt to 30 N·m (22 lb ft).
10] Lift to release the shift control neutral lock pin.
11] Install the shift control closeout boot. Refer to Shift Control Shift Closeout Boot Replacement .
12] Release the parking brake.
1] Apply the parking brake.
2] Remove the shift control closeout boot. Refer to Shift Control Shift Closeout Boot Replacement .
3] Place the shifter into NEUTRAL.
4] Press down to engage the shift control neutral lock pin.
5] Loosen the transmission shift rod clamp bolt.
6] Loosen the shift control mounting bolts.
7] Check that the shift control locator (on the underside of the shift control) is installed into the shifter bracket on the side of the driveline support assembly.
Notice
Use the correct fastener in the correct location. Replacement fasteners must be the correct part number for that application. Fasteners requiring replacement or fasteners requiring the use of thread locking compound or sealant are identified in the service procedure. Do not use paints, lubricants, or corrosion inhibitors on fasteners or fastener joint surfaces unless specified. These coatings affect fastener torque and joint clamping force and may damage the fastener. Use the correct tightening sequence and specifications when installing fasteners in order to avoid damage to parts and systems.
8] Tighten the shift control mounting bolts. Tighten the shift control mounting bolts to 30 N·m (22 lb ft).
9] Tighten the transmission shift rod clamp bolt. Tighten the transmission shift rod clamp bolt to 30 N·m (22 lb ft).
10] Lift to release the shift control neutral lock pin.
11] Install the shift control closeout boot. Refer to Shift Control Shift Closeout Boot Replacement .
12] Release the parking brake.
You actually don't align the shifter as much as you do the shift box it bolts to. 
After making sure the shifter was in neutral I loosened the two large torx bolts on the shift box then removed the third one that clamps to the shaft. You can then slide the shift box back and forth slightly to center the groove on the shaft with the clamp. Then crank them all back down again. I used a drill bit to keep the shift lever centered while moving the shift box.
Worked for me and got rid the the problems I was having with second and reverse.
Photo borrowed from http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c5/pat...rInstall.shtml
After making sure the shifter was in neutral I loosened the two large torx bolts on the shift box then removed the third one that clamps to the shaft. You can then slide the shift box back and forth slightly to center the groove on the shaft with the clamp. Then crank them all back down again. I used a drill bit to keep the shift lever centered while moving the shift box.
Worked for me and got rid the the problems I was having with second and reverse.
Photo borrowed from http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c5/pat...rInstall.shtml
Shifter adjustment
Once you remove the trim bezel and rubber isolation boot, you will see this.
Simply put the transmission in neutral with the Ebrake on, loosen the 3 Torx fasteners, 2 on the torque tube and one on the pinch bolt for the shifter rod.
Drop the pin into the slot and retorque the fasteners, all 3 to 30 N.M or 22 ft lbs. The 2 torque tube fasteners first, then the pinch bolt. Pull the pin back up, that’s it.
Use an allen wrench or drill bit if your pin is missing…
This made a big improvement, but I occasionally would still get hung up getting into first. I took apart the console again and noticed that even with the alignment pin "in' and all 3 torx bolts loose the shifter "box" still had about 2 millimeters play forward and back. In other words you can tighten the shifter box after you push the shifter box to the front part of this play or to the back part of this play. I decided to try pushing the shifter box all the way forward, tighten everything and drive the car. This made my first gear selection problem COMPLETELY disappear BUT now second felt a bit "crunchy" going in and 3rd and 4th gear were not as easy as before. So I tried moving the shifter box to the back of the possible play and drive the car. My first gear problem came back worse than ever, but the rest of the gears were relatively smoother but not perfect.
I was back to square one... So I took a break, and when I came back i decided to totally remove the shifter box and analyze this problem. Once I removed the shifter I noticed that there is a half moon shaped cut out on the shift shaft that the 3rd torx bolt goes through. This cut out prevents the shift shaft from completely coming out of the clamp if the bolt got loose, and is obviously, exactly where the bolt is designed to go through the clamp.
What I did was I installed the shifter box back with only the 2 torx that hold it to the tunnel finger tight and left out the 3rd torx completely. I took a flash light and shined it down the hole.
where the bolt goes in the clamp. It turns out that the cut out on the shift shaft can be a millimeter forward of the clamp or a millimeter aft of the clamp and the bolt will still go into the clamp fine and you can tighten it in any of these positions. Thus the 2 millimeters of play.
I made an educated guess that the cut out on the shaft should be EXACTLY aligned with the hole in the clamp (not a bit forward or back even though the bolt will still fit)
so I aligned the cut out on the shaft so perfectly that when you shined a light down the hole the cut out on the shaft was not even noticeable. You could just see a perfectly round hole. I then tightened the 2 torx on the torque tube to spec and checked to see if anything moved. Nothing moved and the shaft cut out was still perfectly aligned with the hole in the clamp that holds the 3rd torx. I carefully placed the 3rd torx in the clamp and since the it was so well lined up it I could tighten it with my fingers (up to a point of course) then I carefully tightened it to spec (22 ft pounds) trying not to place any down pressure on the bolt, just rotational pressure enough to get to spec.
Buttoned it all back up and WOW. All gears went in perfectly. First smooth as silk, second smooth with no crunch, third and fourth with one finger, fifth and sixth smooth.
After this, I changed the transmission fluid to the Redline D4 ATF you guys recommend, and that made the shifting even smoother.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 32,910
Likes: 2,402
From: Anthony TX
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
Are you sure that you’re getting FULL clutch disengagement when you have the clutch fully depressed?? JACK UP the rear end.
Start the engine.
Put the trans in Neutral, let the clutch out and see if the rear wheels rotate. They shouldnt. If they do, you have an isue inside the transmission
FULLY Depress the clutch, Put the trans in first and see if the rear wheels rotate. Rev the engine with the clutch fully depressed and see if you get any rear wheel rotation. You shouldn’t if the clutch is properly disengaging.
When the shop installed the new clutch, there were some critical measurements that needed to be taken to determine if a shim needs to be installed behind the slave cylinder. If they didn’t take the measurements, it could cause clutch slippage by not allowing full engagement or trans damage due to improper disengagement. The measurements tell you if you need the shim or not and if the clutch will work properly with the parts that your using.
Air in the master or slave can also cause poor clutch operation.
Bill
Start the engine.
Put the trans in Neutral, let the clutch out and see if the rear wheels rotate. They shouldnt. If they do, you have an isue inside the transmission
FULLY Depress the clutch, Put the trans in first and see if the rear wheels rotate. Rev the engine with the clutch fully depressed and see if you get any rear wheel rotation. You shouldn’t if the clutch is properly disengaging.
When the shop installed the new clutch, there were some critical measurements that needed to be taken to determine if a shim needs to be installed behind the slave cylinder. If they didn’t take the measurements, it could cause clutch slippage by not allowing full engagement or trans damage due to improper disengagement. The measurements tell you if you need the shim or not and if the clutch will work properly with the parts that your using.
Air in the master or slave can also cause poor clutch operation.
Bill
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Pro
Joined: Nov 2010
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Likes: 21
Make sure that you have in writing that they will cover the repairs after a few hundred miles!!!
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 19,423
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From: Dyer, IN
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 277
Likes: 29
From: Gretna, NE
Bill: I will try that first thing!
I will let you guys know what I find. Bottom line, if I can't fix it with these simple things the cars going back. And I mean the problem has to be 100% gone. I have no doubt they will stand behind their work, they are good guys. They are the ones that offered to come pick it up if it doesn't get better after those miles.
No matter what it seems like I have THAT car when the situation is "I've never seen that before." Not just with this car at this shop, with everything I've had at diff shops. Must just be my luck I guess Everything eventually works out its just a long, stressful process getting there. All part of a learning process I suppose.
I will let you guys know what I find. Bottom line, if I can't fix it with these simple things the cars going back. And I mean the problem has to be 100% gone. I have no doubt they will stand behind their work, they are good guys. They are the ones that offered to come pick it up if it doesn't get better after those miles.
No matter what it seems like I have THAT car when the situation is "I've never seen that before." Not just with this car at this shop, with everything I've had at diff shops. Must just be my luck I guess
Everything eventually works out its just a long, stressful process getting there. All part of a learning process I suppose.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 277
Likes: 29
From: Gretna, NE
Well I did as Bill suggested and I am getting full clutch disengagement. With the rear end in the air and the car idling I put it in neutral, let out on the clutch and no wheel movement. Then I put it in first with the clutch depressed and still no wheel movement. I even let out on the clutch to let the wheels spin and pushed back in on the clutch and the wheels came to stop. I did this several times just to be sure.
I have been staying in constant contact with the mechanic/tuner that did the work and he said if it doesn't clear up after 100 miles then he will want it back and they will come and pick it up in an enclosed trailer and haul it back to the shop. Great guys and business to stand behind their work as they should, especially since I'm 7hrs away. I'm that one in a million case.
I have been staying in constant contact with the mechanic/tuner that did the work and he said if it doesn't clear up after 100 miles then he will want it back and they will come and pick it up in an enclosed trailer and haul it back to the shop. Great guys and business to stand behind their work as they should, especially since I'm 7hrs away. I'm that one in a million case.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 32,910
Likes: 2,402
From: Anthony TX
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
WELL DONE! You proved to your self that you indeed have an internal trans issue. I recommend doing some experimenting to see if you can pinpoint EXACTLY when and how that your experiencing the issue.
If it were me, I would make a video of what your expensing.
Sometimes,,,,,,,,,,, those GREAT Guys can turn into VINDICTIVE DICKS when they see how much cash they have to invest to fix what they messed up!
If they are really great people,, PRAISE them and post the end result and successful repair with the name of the shop!
Bill
If it were me, I would make a video of what your expensing.
Sometimes,,,,,,,,,,, those GREAT Guys can turn into VINDICTIVE DICKS when they see how much cash they have to invest to fix what they messed up!
If they are really great people,, PRAISE them and post the end result and successful repair with the name of the shop!
Bill
Tech Contributor
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 32,910
Likes: 2,402
From: Anthony TX
CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
Just to show you how this works,, I developed a forth gear issue on my 02 ZO6 when the car was cold. I installed a brand new TRANSZILLA T-60/60 MN12 trans, SPEC Clutch, upgraded rearend in my ZO6. All the other gears worked just fine except fourth gear....
I developed a BAD grind when going into forth gear when the drive train was not fully warmed up. After experiencing the problem two times since the car has been back on the road, I stopped using fourth gear until the issue was resolved.. I decided to troubleshoot the issue instead of blaming it on the trans..
Ready to RIP it back out and send it back to George at Rockland Gear, I did my own CLUTCH disengagement experiments and GUESS WHAT?? As much as I tried to get all the air out of the TICK master cyl,,, I failed.
When the tranny was COLD,, there was a clutch disengagement issue.. For what ever reason, it was more pronounced in fourth gear.
I re-bled the system today and I am back to razor sharp shifts..
George! THANK YOU for the OUTSTANDING TRANSMISSION!!!!!!!:cheers :
Rockland Standard Gear: http://www.rsgear.com/products/trans...tranzilla.aspx
I can not believe how much better the upgraded trans shifts now that I removed the real issue causing the problem..
Bill Curlee
I developed a BAD grind when going into forth gear when the drive train was not fully warmed up. After experiencing the problem two times since the car has been back on the road, I stopped using fourth gear until the issue was resolved.. I decided to troubleshoot the issue instead of blaming it on the trans..
Ready to RIP it back out and send it back to George at Rockland Gear, I did my own CLUTCH disengagement experiments and GUESS WHAT?? As much as I tried to get all the air out of the TICK master cyl,,, I failed.
When the tranny was COLD,, there was a clutch disengagement issue.. For what ever reason, it was more pronounced in fourth gear.
I re-bled the system today and I am back to razor sharp shifts..
George! THANK YOU for the OUTSTANDING TRANSMISSION!!!!!!!
:cheers :Rockland Standard Gear: http://www.rsgear.com/products/trans...tranzilla.aspx
I can not believe how much better the upgraded trans shifts now that I removed the real issue causing the problem..
Bill Curlee
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 20,030
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From: Wylie TX --> Less is More, except under the hood !
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 277
Likes: 29
From: Gretna, NE
Update: The shop came and got the car and took it back for repairs 3 weeks ago. It is now done, we are just trying to colaborate a time for him to deliver the car back to me. I will update you when I get it back and have time to drive it.
One thing I need to note is the fact that I just learned is the fact that the guy that did all the work is the one responsible for coming down and getting my car, repairing it, and bringing it back at his own expense and out of the goodness of his heart. I found out the shop owner feels like the guy doing this, is going out of his way to do so. I think that is just rediculous that he can't even be backed by his own shop owner when he specificly told me he had a warrenty on this. Anyway I will keep you updated.
One thing I need to note is the fact that I just learned is the fact that the guy that did all the work is the one responsible for coming down and getting my car, repairing it, and bringing it back at his own expense and out of the goodness of his heart. I found out the shop owner feels like the guy doing this, is going out of his way to do so. I think that is just rediculous that he can't even be backed by his own shop owner when he specificly told me he had a warrenty on this. Anyway I will keep you updated.
Pro
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 545
Likes: 1
From: Charlotte NC
I am running a Tick rebuild (Level 2) that was done 4yrs ago with no issues. My guess is shifter alignment. Just a small amount of misalignment will make a huge difference.
Pro
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 627
Likes: 33
From: Omaha NE
Can you do the shifter alignment with an aftermarket shifter? I've tried to do all of those steps with my Hurst Billet Plus and it doesn't have that notch for the alighment tool to go into. At least I don't think it did.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 277
Likes: 29
From: Gretna, NE
I did the shifter alignment before I took it back. After he tore back into it I believe he had to replace the 3-4 keys and the 5-6hub. I'm by no means an expert on transmissions but he showed me and does a very good job explaining the situation to me even if it goes over my head haha. He says it it's all better now so let's hope so. As much as it sucks after doing all this work and getting the car where I want it, I have to cut my losses and sell the car.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 277
Likes: 29
From: Gretna, NE
UPDATE:
He deilvered my car yesterday morning and it feels a lot better! Every gear goes in nice and smooth now and downshifting is no problem. He said the new keys had burs on them that he ended up filing down and replaced the 5-6 hub and a few bearings. It was a long process working with them on when to get it delivered but everything was done at no cost to me so I am satisfied. Lets just hope I never have to go through that again.
He deilvered my car yesterday morning and it feels a lot better! Every gear goes in nice and smooth now and downshifting is no problem. He said the new keys had burs on them that he ended up filing down and replaced the 5-6 hub and a few bearings. It was a long process working with them on when to get it delivered but everything was done at no cost to me so I am satisfied. Lets just hope I never have to go through that again.