Getting ready to do a straight line sub 11 build. Was thinking about an older ECM controlled Vette engine, but I don't know much about the C4/C5 engines - jumped from the 350's to the LS3/9's.


Which one has the most upside potential and the best starting point? Was hoping at worst to change the cam on the internals. When did the ECM controlled FI come into existence?


Kinda stuck on Vegas because of the light weight and non-smog requirements, but I'm open to ideas.

 

The LS series engine first came out on the 97 C5 It was an LS1 series. ALL of the LS series are considered a small block engine.

If it were me,, get the largest bore X stroke engine that you can afford. I have had LS1, LS6 and LS3 engines and the LS3 responds better to MODS than the smaller bore X stroke engines More bang for the buck!

New LS6 blocks are pretty reasonable

Here is some infor off the internet:

LS1/LS6
LS1 5.7L (346-cu-in) engines were produced between the 1997 and 2004 model years in the United States (Corvette, Camaro, Firebird and GTO) and stretching into 2005 in other markets (primarily Australia). The LS6 was introduced in 2001 in the Corvette Z06 and was manufactured through 2005, where it also was found in the first generation of the Cadillac CTS-V. The LS1 and LS6 share a 5.7L displacement, but the LS6 production engine uses a unique block casting with enhanced strength, greater bay-to-bay breathing capability and other minor differences. The heads, intake manifolds and camshaft also are unique LS6 parts.

LS2
In 2005, the LS2 6.0L (364 cu in) engine and the Gen IV design changes debuted. In GM performance vehicles, it was offered in the Corvette, GTO and even the heritage-styled SSR roadster. It is the standard engine in the Pontiac G8 GT. Its larger displacement brought greater power. The LS2 is one of the most adaptable engines, as LS1, LS6, LS3 and L92 cylinder heads work well on it.

LS3/L99
Introduced on the 2008 Corvette, the LS3 brought LS base performance to an unprecedented level: 430 horsepower from 6.2L (376 cu in) - making it the most powerful base Corvette engine in history. The LS3 block not only has larger bores than the LS2, but a strengthened casting to support more powerful 6.2L engines, including the LS9 supercharged engine of the Corvette ZR1. The LS3 is offered in the Pontiac G8 GXP and is also the standard V-8 engine in the new, 2010 Camaro SS. The L99 version is equipped with GM's fuel-saving Active Fuel Management cylinder deactivation system and is standard on 2010 Camaro SS models equipped with an automatic transmission.

LS4
Perhaps the most unique application of the LS engine in a car, the LS4 is a 5.3L version used in the front-wheel-drive Chevrolet Impala SS and Pontiac Grand Prix GXP. The LS4 has an aluminum block and unique, low-profile front-end accessory system, including a "flattened" water pump, to accommodate the transverse mounting position within the Impala and Grand Prix. It is rated at 303 horsepower and 323 lb-ft of torque.

LS7
A legend in its own time. The LS7 is the standard engine in the Corvette Z06 and its 7.0L displacement (427 cubic inches) makes it the largest LS engine offered in a production car. Unlike LS1/LS6, LS2 and LS3 engines, the LS7 uses a Siamese-bore cylinder block design - required for its big, 4.125-inch bores. Competition-proven heads and lightweight components, such as titanium rods and intake valves, make the LS7 a street-tuned racing engine, with 505 horsepower. LS7 engines are built by hand at the GM Performance Build Center in Wixom, Mich.

LS9
The most powerful production engine ever from GM, the LS9 is the 6.2L supercharged and charge-cooled engine of the Corvette ZR1. It is rated at an astonishing 638 horsepower. The LS9 uses the strengthened 6.2L block with stronger, roto-cast cylinder heads and a sixth-generation 2.3L Roots-type supercharger. Like the LS7, it uses a dry-sump oiling system. It is the ultimate production LS engine. It is built by hand at the GM Performance Build Center in Wixom, Mich.

LSA
A detuned version of the LS9, this supercharged 6.2L engine is standard in the 2009 Cadillac CTS-V. It is built with several differences, when compared to the LS9, including hypereutectic pistons vs. the LS9's forged pistons; and a smaller, 1.9L supercharger. The LSA also has a different charge-cooler design on top of the supercharger. Horsepower is rated at 556 in the super-quick Caddy.

Gen III & Gen IV Vortec truck engines
Although performance car engines have typically carried "LS" designations, truck engines built on this platform have been dubbed Vortec. In the beginning, they were generally distinguished by iron cylinder blocks and were offered in smaller displacements than car engines. Interestingly, a 5.7L Vortec "LS" engine has never been offered. Here's a quick rundown of the previous and current-production LS truck engines:
* 4.8L - The smallest-displacement LS engine (293 cu in); it uses an iron block with 3.78-inch bores and aluminum heads.
* 5.3L - The most common LS truck engine (327 cu in), it uses the same iron block with 3.78-inch bores as the 4.8L, but with a longer stroke , (3.62-inch)crank. Later versions equipped for Active Fuel Management. Manufactured with iron and aluminum cylinder blocks.
* 6.0L - Used primarily in 3/4-ton and 1-ton trucks, the 6.0L (364 cu in) uses an iron block (LY6) or aluminum block (L76) and aluminum heads, with provisions for Active Fuel Management; some equipped with variable valve timing.
* 6.2L - Commonly referred to by its L92 engine code, the 6.2L (376 cu in) engine uses an aluminum block and heads, and incorporates advanced technology including variable valve timing. The L92 is used primarily as a high-performance engine for the Cadillac Escalade and GMC Yukon Denali.

Non-production cylinder blocks
C5R: Developed for the factory-backed Corvette racing program, the C5R cylinder block has been manufactured in comparatively small quantities since 2000. They are manufactured with a unique aluminum alloy for greater strength and undergo a variety of specialized machining and inspection processes, including "hipping" to increase strength and X-raying that ensures against unacceptable porosity. A Siamese bore design with 4.117-inch finished bores enables 7.0L (427-cu-in) displacements. The C5R uses billet steel main caps with premium, 4340 fasteners. Racing-quality head studs are also included. All LS series heads will work with the C5R block, but maximum performance depends on maximum airflow.

LSX Bowtie Block (standard and tall-deck): Introduced in 2007, the LSX Bowtie Block is a durable and affordable cast iron casting that was designed to support extreme high-performance combinations, including provisions for six-bolts-per-cylinder head fastening. It has a Siamese bore design with 3.99-inch bores that must be finished to 4.00 inches - with a 4.25-inch recommended maximum bore. Maximum stroke can reach 4.25 inches, but rotating assembly interference on the cylinder must be taken into account for strokes greater than 4.125 inches; heavy metal is required for crankshaft balancing of larger-stroke combinations. Standard versions feature decks 0.020-inch taller than LS production blocks, with the tall-deck version manufactured with a 9.70-inch semi-finished deck height. The oiling system is a true priority-main system and all LS small-block heads work with the engine. Higher-airflow heads, such as LS7 and C5R, are recommended.

Crankshafts
Generally, LS crankshafts are similar in design, with identical 2.10-inch rod and 2.65-inch main journal sizes and a common rear main seal. All LS engines uses iron crankshafts except the LS7, LS9 and LSA; they used forged steel cranks (4.00-inch stroke on the LS7; 3.62-inch stroke on the LS9 and LSA).

The crankshaft sensing function of the distributorless ignition system depends on reading the toothed reluctor wheel on the crankshaft. Early LS engines mostly used 24-tooth wheels and upgraded a few years ago to 58-tooth (also known as 58X) wheels. When building an LS engine, it is imperative the correct reluctor wheel is used with the compatible crankshaft position sensor and ignition controller.

The crankshafts are mostly interchangeable, but the snouts on LS7 and LS9 crankshafts are approximately 1-inch longer to accommodate their two-stage oil pumps that work with the engines' dry-sump oiling systems. These forged crankshafts can be used on wet-sump engines by using a few specific components and/or modifications.

The easiest way to put a forged stroker crankshaft in your LS engine is using GM Performance Parts' new LSX crankshafts, which are available in four stroke sizes up to 4.125 inches. They feature the standard-length snout and can be used without modification on most engines. LS7 and LS9 crankshafts can be used, but require special components and/or modifications to their snouts to accommodate standard, wet-sump oiling systems.

Connecting Rods
LS connecting rods are very similar and interchangeable. Most are made of powdered metal, while the LS7 and LS9 rods are forged titanium. Rods lengths are similar, too, at 6.098-inch for 5.3L, 5.7L, 6.0L and 6.2L engines. The 4.8L engine uses 6.275-inch rods and the LS7 uses 6.067-inch rods. Since 2006, LS rods use bushed small ends. Also, LS6 rods bolts, P/N 11600158, offer a strength-enhancing upgrade to pre-2000 engines. Finally, because of the pistons' inner bracing, non-LS7 rods will not work with LS7 pistons; and the LS7 rods have a slightly different size than other LS rods, requiring a unique bearing, P/N 89017573.

Pistons
The LS9 is the only production LS engine with forged aluminum pistons; all the other use hypereutectic (cast) aluminum alloy pistons - varied mostly by diameter to accommodate various bore sizes. LS cast pistons shouldn't be used on applications greater than approximately 550 horsepower. Also, the LS7 piston's inner bracing requires the use of the matching LS7 connecting rod.

Cylinder Heads - Port Design Cylinder head interchangeability enables great parts mixing to build custom LS engine combinations, but the heads must be matched with intake manifolds that have compatible intake port configurations. The port sizes and shapes include:

Cathedral port - Introduced on the LS1 engine and used also on the LS6 and LS2, cathedral-port heads are named for the unique shape of the top of the intake port. Intake manifolds for LS1, LS2, LS6 and Vortec engines with cathedral-port heads are mostly interchangeable.

Rectangular port - LS7-style - The second LS intake runner design debuted on the Corvette Z06's LS7 engine. This rectangular design supports the straight-through airflow design of the heads. They feature 270cc intake ports and the ports and combustion chambers are CNC-ported from the factory. Use only with the LS7 intake manifold.

Rectangular port - L92 style - Similar to the LS7 design, but the ports are a little taller and a little narrower. They flow more than cathedral-port heads, but not as much as LS7 heads. In addition to the L92 6.2L engines, this port shape is also used on LS3 engines and some 6.0L truck engines, as well as the Corvette ZR1's LS9 and Cadillac CTS-V's LSA supercharged engines. Intake manifold bolt patterns are unique to this port design.

C5R heads - These heads pioneered the rectangular-port design, but because they are designed for professional finishing, their final shape and size depends on whoever is performing the porting.

Head-to-Block Compatibility
Because of their comparatively small bores - 3.89 inches - LS1 and LS6 engines can only use LS1, LS6 and LS2 heads. Using heads designed for larger engines will cause the valve-to-block interference. The larger, 4.00-inch bore of the LS2 enables it to use LS1/LS6 heads, as well as L92-style heads (including LS3, LS9 and LSA engines). The 6.2L engines (LS3, L92, etc.) can use any head except for the LS7 and C5R, while the 7.0L LS7 and C5R blocks can use any LS-series head. LS7 blocks should be matched with heads designed for at least 4.10-inch bores; and 4.125-inch bores are preferred.

Most LS production cylinder blocks share the came cylinder head bolt pattern and the same size head bolts - four 11mm bolts per cylinder (10 in total) and five upper, 8mm bolts. Early LS1 and LS6 engines used different-length 11mm bolts, but engines from 2004 and later use same-length bolts. LS9 engines use stronger, 12mm head bolts.

Non-production blocks, such as GM Performance Parts' LSX block and the C5R, offer the same head-bolt pattern as production blocks. All LS heads will bolt up to them, but care must be taken to select the most compatible heads based on the appropriate bore size. Because of their large bores, heads designed for at least 4.10-inch bores should be used and 4.125-inch bores are preferred, such as the L92/LS3 or LS7 heads; otherwise valve-to-block interference is an issue, as is sufficient cylinder sealing.

GM Performance Parts' new LSX cylinder heads use 10 11mm and 13 8mm head bolts, or eight more than a regular-production LS head. That's more than 50 percent more head bolts than production heads, supplying superior clamping strength.



Read more: http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...#ixzz290CdK9jL

 

Any LS engine is an excellent platform. The LS1 can very easily hit 11's with heads/cam, in a Vette. Once you are 400+ HP, your most beneficial ET reducing mods are going to be gears, wheels/tires, shaving weight.

If you are planning on breaking open the engine, regardless of LSx, it doesn't really matter. LS7's are currently scaring a lot of people due to valve-train issues and Siamese cylinders. The LS3 is a phenomenal powerplant, dyno reports of 450 WHP with long tube headers, UDP and a tune. That beats a stock LS7.

LS9 is going to be your most expensive. It's basically a supercharged LS3 with stronger internals. But for $15k to $20k you could build a much nastier engine.

If it were me I would find and build a LS1. They are cheaper than any other LS engine, parts are all over the place, there are many retrofit kits available to fit into classics and customs. Best of all they can make some impressive HP numbers.

FI was first implemented into the Corvette in 1982 with the Crossfire Injection. It was basically a throttle body injected 350. In 1985 the Corvette got the L98 tuned port injection engine, also a 350 with long intake runners. Then in 92 came the LT1. Mid 90s the LT4 was available. The LT5 a DOHC 350, 400hp engine came in ZR1s in the early 90s. LS1 came with the C5 in 97.

The easiest, best all around option is hands down the LS1.

 

If it was my Vega, I'd get a junk yard LQ9. It's an iron version of the LS2 (about 80# heavier)

Get it with the ECM and install a mild cam. Have the heads cleaned up a bit and install new springs, seats, seals.

3600-4000 converter and 3.73 gears, and that little Vega will run 10s all day long and be completely drivable.

 

Hey Bill, thanks for that, good stuff - couldn't find that kind of info with Google??? Also couldn't find the similar references to the LT engines.

Would need to find an LS1 with a tranny bolted up already. Did the LS1 come in a Camaro? What years?

Already have an LS9 - LOL




Why do I see LQ9's showing up as 5.3L - what size is that engine?

 

LQ9 is a 6.0L and the T-350/400 bolts right up to it with a flexplate/converter adapter

 

I'm assuming you want an auto? Yes the LS1 came in the Camaro and Firebirds from 1998 to 2002. You should be able to find these with the transmission, harness and PCM easily for $3k, maybe less.

 

What's the upside HP with a tune an bolt-ons? Is the tranny a 4L60 ie 4L60E?

 

Should be a 4L60. LS1 Camaros with intake, long tubes, and a tune only put down 325hp-350hp. A replacement cam and head work is where you pick up hp. Expect 425 with a decent cam and stock heads. 450+ with ported heads, or higher with replacement heads and intake manifold.

 

LS1 auto trans would be 4l60e, computer controlled if that's what you're wondering.

 

Right - trying to move on from the old 350's/TH350 w/4brl to a FI, tuned, computer controlled. Been programming computers for many years, just never messed with a vehicle.

The LS1's are all FI?

 

LS 1 are FI and controlled by a computer as is the 4L60E. You can install a carb on an LS engine. They make carb manifolds for them.

As mentioned above. The best option is likely to get a pull out engine/trans/PCM from a 98-02 camaro or trans am.

That will be a 346ci. To get the 364ci (6.0L) would be an LS 2 out of a GTO or C6 vette. Or get the iron block and trans out of a truck.

Depending on your goals and budget, an iron 5.3 (327ci) and trans would be cheap from a junk yard. Get your vega running 11.50 pretty easily.

 

Actually near finished with this Vega and will be making the maiden run Wed evening at Searspoint/Infineon/Sonoma Raceway.



Hope to make it 11.5 and will likely change the rear gears/tires. Don't let the stock appearance fool you, this thing idles at 950 and sounds like a fuelly dragster.

The next project will be something a bit quicker with a roll cage - which is what this thread is all about. I'll be selling this one next month.

 

after a lot of research I've grown partial to the LS3 platform...has great bang for the buck to build on.

I'm planning on putting in a Forged LS3 417 Stroker that will put down 540+ HP N/A...with good tires and diff ratios this will get you into the high 10's and be very streetable..and because its forged you can add NOS or Boost later on and easily get into the 9's.

You can get one built for 7-9k, maybe 5-6k if you build it yourself ;-)

 

My guess is a stock LS3 and A4/6 will get into the 10's with the right body. GM has the LS3 E-Rod with a 4L65 and all the parts for about 10K - with a warranty. Remember, I''m in need of the entire setup, ECM, harnesses, pedal, tranny, et al. Budget is always part of the equation unless you have a sponsor -

 

Bill, Don't ya just love chevy motors. Life is great!

 

Just to throw another option out there, I currently have an stock LS1 with only some exhaust and intake upgrades with a 150 wet shot of Nitrous that is putting down over 520 HP. The Nitrous kit and some colder spark plugs to run it safely was under $900 bucks and easy to install.

Haven't had it at the track yet but am pretty sure it will get pretty close to a 10.9 with my fat azz (250 Lbs) in the car. I figure with some gas and me in the car the ACTUAL curb weight is over 3500 lbs...so on a lighter body you'd be hitten solid tens easily.

So by picking up an LS1 with tranny for 3k-ish, and spending another 1k or so on a NOS kit, and retarding the timing a bit and dropping in some colder plugs for safety you can have a 10 sec power plant for around 4k....as mentioned previously, a harness and PCM can be had pretty cheap from an older camero ;-)

Just thought I'd throw that out there.


EDIT: forgot to mention I have an upgraded fuel pump as well, but that was only $200 ;-)

 

I guess you could run a carb if you really wanted to.

 

Sorry, it was a question. I want the FI and the tune capability.

 

unless someone purpose built one with a carb all the LS1's that your going to find second hand from other cars are going to be Fuel Injected and Computer Controlled