Torque AND Handling
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,240
Likes: 1
From: Orange County California
Torque AND Handling
My favorite aspect of driving is two things: Torque, and top notch agile handling around curves.
Don't really care about raw horsepower as much
To me, the two funnest characteristics a car can have, is top motch handling and feel on the twisties, and that seat of you pants rush that comes from high levels of accessible torque.
You can find great handling in everything from an S2000 to Ferrari Italia, but these cars leave ya hangin in the torque category.
And there are plenty of Muscle Cars with lots of Torque but that handle like a lump of lead on ball-bearings around a curve.
But a properly modded C5 gets you BOTH top notch handling, AND that Torquey FUN.
I love that about these cars...for less than $40,000 you can have your cake and eat it too at a great bang for the buck!
Don't really care about raw horsepower as much
To me, the two funnest characteristics a car can have, is top motch handling and feel on the twisties, and that seat of you pants rush that comes from high levels of accessible torque.
You can find great handling in everything from an S2000 to Ferrari Italia, but these cars leave ya hangin in the torque category.
And there are plenty of Muscle Cars with lots of Torque but that handle like a lump of lead on ball-bearings around a curve.
But a properly modded C5 gets you BOTH top notch handling, AND that Torquey FUN.
I love that about these cars...for less than $40,000 you can have your cake and eat it too at a great bang for the buck!
Last edited by steven31371; Feb 8, 2013 at 07:02 PM.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,240
Likes: 1
From: Orange County California
Here's a challenge for you...try to identify a car that has the fun torqueyness of a even "Bolt Ons" only power plant modded C5 AND has the curvy road handling of a C5 with upgraded Sway Bars and Shocks/coilovers, that looks as good as a Vette, can be daily driven, and costs less than $100,000....
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,003
Likes: 89
From: Indy IN
Here's a challenge for you...try to identify a car that has the fun torqueyness of a even "Bolt Ons" only power plant modded C5 AND has the curvy road handling of a C5 with upgraded Sway Bars and Shocks/coilovers, that looks as good as a Vette, can be daily driven, and costs less than $100,000....
What really wakes up these cars is a good alignment and proper setup. You really don't have to go all the way to coilovers to get that. Just do an aggressive alignment add the Z06 bits (springs and sways) and a set of Bilsteins with a good set of tires and you have a corner carver that is second to none.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,240
Likes: 1
From: Orange County California
No problem, it doesn't exist...
What really wakes up these cars is a good alignment and proper setup. You really don't have to go all the way to coilovers to get that. Just do an aggressive alignment add the Z06 bits (springs and sways) and a set of Bilsteins with a good set of tires and you have a corner carver that is second to none.
What really wakes up these cars is a good alignment and proper setup. You really don't have to go all the way to coilovers to get that. Just do an aggressive alignment add the Z06 bits (springs and sways) and a set of Bilsteins with a good set of tires and you have a corner carver that is second to none.
drive a lotus sometime
but yeah, agreed, just updating the sways and shocks with a good alignment makes it top notch :-)
and the lotus has no torque ;-)
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,150
Likes: 889
From: South Western Ontario
I think I'll stick to wanting horsepower. I will always want the most HP at every usable rpm. HP tells you how much work the engine will do or how quickly the engine will accelerate the car. Torque just tells you how hard the engine twists....
You do understand that what you're describing is an engine with more hp at lower rpm's or a wider hp curve?
You do understand that what you're describing is an engine with more hp at lower rpm's or a wider hp curve?
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,240
Likes: 1
From: Orange County California
I think I'll stick to wanting horsepower. I will always want the most HP at every usable rpm. HP tells you how much work the engine will do or how quickly the engine will accelerate the car. Torque just tells you how hard the engine twists....
You do understand that what you're describing is an engine with more hp at lower rpm's or a wider hp curve?
You do understand that what you're describing is an engine with more hp at lower rpm's or a wider hp curve?
Without Velocity of flow torque goes down, and with it the ability for HP to be applied in moving a given weight forward faster. So while higher HP can be gained from higher volume "in and out" ports, it is the velocity of gas flow that determines whether a given amount of HP accelerates an object quickly or slowly.
So basically, higher HP, even at the lower and mid RPM ranges, does not necessarily correlate to faster acceleration of the weight of your car, while Torque ALWAYS DOES.
At least thats how I understand it after ten minutes of googling it
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Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,240
Likes: 1
From: Orange County California
although I think with just a little more power my car will be faster than any fully stock C5Z even if it has a good alignment...my handling and breaking is better already, and I've got the weight down to around C5Z levels.
With 100+ lbs of weight loss, my poly bushings, HP Plus brake pads, Hotchkis adjustable sways, and fixed back seats, good alignment, along with full bolt ons less H/C's, I think My car is probably faster around curves than a STOCK C5Z right now....and about as fast in a straight line.
might be fun to find out :-)
My HP is probably about the same as a stock C5Z already, and I haven't done Heads/Cam yet.
What rear diff ratio comes stock in a C5Z?
I have a 3:42 now.
Last edited by steven31371; Feb 8, 2013 at 07:00 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,150
Likes: 889
From: South Western Ontario
A torque number by itself is absolutely 100% completely useless information. All it tells you is how hard the engine twists the crank. It's useless to determine how fast your car will accelerate.
The combination of a torque@rpm number is useful. You could use both the torque and rpm numbers to determine how fast your car can accelerate. However, torque@rpm can be simplified to just a hp number and knowing the hp will tell you how quickly the car your car can accelerate.
Having a higher hp means the car accelerate faster but having a higher torque only may mean the car accelerates faster.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 2
From: Tallahassee FL
My favorite aspect of driving is two things: Torque, and top notch agile handling around curves.
Don't really care about raw horsepower as much
To me, the two funnest characteristics a car can have, is top motch handling and feel on the twisties, and that seat of you pants rush that comes from high levels of accessible torque.
You can find great handling in everything from an S2000 to Ferrari Italia, but these cars leave ya hangin in the torque category.
And there are plenty of Muscle Cars with lots of Torque but that handle like a lump of lead on ball-bearings around a curve.
But a properly modded C5 gets you BOTH top notch handling, AND that Torquey FUN.
I love that about these cars...for less than $40,000 you can have your cake and eat it too at a great bang for the buck!
Don't really care about raw horsepower as much
To me, the two funnest characteristics a car can have, is top motch handling and feel on the twisties, and that seat of you pants rush that comes from high levels of accessible torque.
You can find great handling in everything from an S2000 to Ferrari Italia, but these cars leave ya hangin in the torque category.
And there are plenty of Muscle Cars with lots of Torque but that handle like a lump of lead on ball-bearings around a curve.
But a properly modded C5 gets you BOTH top notch handling, AND that Torquey FUN.
I love that about these cars...for less than $40,000 you can have your cake and eat it too at a great bang for the buck!
Rich, you asked about where "flex" is built into the system to accomodate manufacturer variences and tolerances, as well as drive train movement...
I'll try to keep this simple
1. Lift your hood
2. push sideways on you engine and observe how much it moves (its mounted on rubber bushings)
3. start your car while on a lift and have someone rev the gas while looking underneath at the whole drive train from engine to differential
the trans and diff are also mounted on rubber bushings (unless you have upgraded yo poly bushings, in which case there will be less "flex" but it will still be there)
The entire drivetrain is mounted to the car via flexable bushing so it can move and flex within acceptable tolerances for the power levels it was built at.
there is so much flex built into a stock car that companies like pfadt, ecs, hinson etc., build and offer braces and upgraded bushings to reduce flex, as increasing power levels can cause so much flex that it can break stuff, but even these upgraded systems still have flex built into them, as no flex at all causes stuff to break.
so, too little flex and stuff breaks, too much flex created by high power levels causes stuff to break, leaving a drivetrain unbolted together while getting into the skinny pedal on an LME built 427 twin turbo setup....., yep, you guessed it, causes stuff to break....the 3 or so millimeters of extra length on the driveshaft on each end for your application would more than easliy be absorbed by the continual flex of the drivetrain system, even if you have upgraded bushings, mounts, etc..
so, the whole drivetrain system is mounted to the car on flexible bushings that allow several inches of play front to back...both ends being pushed a few millimeters apart by this driveshaft is well within the movement tolerances of the drivetrain, that regularly moves several inches all on its own (compressing the engine and transmission together, as well as torquing and twisting) in stock configuration.
In fact, where people break stuff like drive shafts, is when they do things like put in solid, nonflexible metal Guibo's that CANNOT flex, and then you break stuff (or alternately, you don't bolt you drive train back together then run 800+ hp through it
)
Jarek, when making the flex plates, be sure to make them in a way that they can flex slightly, this is why the ***** flex plates are made from a steel that can flex and why they have thinner areas alternating with thicker areas...not too complicated but important.
Back to Rich....The whole drivetrain is designed to move and flex and handle small part size variances and movement, however, if one wanted to be extra safe, and remove some material to make a better custom fit, then you don't remove material from the drive shaft, as this would compromise its structural integrity. Where the shafts mount to the shafts on the car there is 12-15 millimeters of material at the connection points where everything bolts together, 2-3 millimeters of material can be carefully removed from each end (front and back of car), without compromising enough torsional strength to matter on anything under 2000 ft lbs of torque.
if you are over 2000 ft lbs of torque you need all custom machined parts anyway, and you will still break stuff, thats just how it is with REALLY big HP/Torque apps.
Hope this helps :-)
***Irrelevant text deleted***
I'll try to keep this simple
1. Lift your hood
2. push sideways on you engine and observe how much it moves (its mounted on rubber bushings)
3. start your car while on a lift and have someone rev the gas while looking underneath at the whole drive train from engine to differential
the trans and diff are also mounted on rubber bushings (unless you have upgraded yo poly bushings, in which case there will be less "flex" but it will still be there)
The entire drivetrain is mounted to the car via flexable bushing so it can move and flex within acceptable tolerances for the power levels it was built at.
there is so much flex built into a stock car that companies like pfadt, ecs, hinson etc., build and offer braces and upgraded bushings to reduce flex, as increasing power levels can cause so much flex that it can break stuff, but even these upgraded systems still have flex built into them, as no flex at all causes stuff to break.
so, too little flex and stuff breaks, too much flex created by high power levels causes stuff to break, leaving a drivetrain unbolted together while getting into the skinny pedal on an LME built 427 twin turbo setup....., yep, you guessed it, causes stuff to break....the 3 or so millimeters of extra length on the driveshaft on each end for your application would more than easliy be absorbed by the continual flex of the drivetrain system, even if you have upgraded bushings, mounts, etc..
so, the whole drivetrain system is mounted to the car on flexible bushings that allow several inches of play front to back...both ends being pushed a few millimeters apart by this driveshaft is well within the movement tolerances of the drivetrain, that regularly moves several inches all on its own (compressing the engine and transmission together, as well as torquing and twisting) in stock configuration.
In fact, where people break stuff like drive shafts, is when they do things like put in solid, nonflexible metal Guibo's that CANNOT flex, and then you break stuff (or alternately, you don't bolt you drive train back together then run 800+ hp through it
)Jarek, when making the flex plates, be sure to make them in a way that they can flex slightly, this is why the ***** flex plates are made from a steel that can flex and why they have thinner areas alternating with thicker areas...not too complicated but important.
Back to Rich....The whole drivetrain is designed to move and flex and handle small part size variances and movement, however, if one wanted to be extra safe, and remove some material to make a better custom fit, then you don't remove material from the drive shaft, as this would compromise its structural integrity. Where the shafts mount to the shafts on the car there is 12-15 millimeters of material at the connection points where everything bolts together, 2-3 millimeters of material can be carefully removed from each end (front and back of car), without compromising enough torsional strength to matter on anything under 2000 ft lbs of torque.
if you are over 2000 ft lbs of torque you need all custom machined parts anyway, and you will still break stuff, thats just how it is with REALLY big HP/Torque apps.
Hope this helps :-)
***Irrelevant text deleted***
I do hope your investigation of torque via Google was a WHOLE lot better than your investigation into drive train play.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,816
Likes: 132
From: Plano TX
Haha...true dat
although I think with just a little more power my car will be faster than any fully stock C5Z even if it has a good alignment...my handling and breaking is better already, and I've got the weight down to around C5Z levels.
With 100+ lbs of weight loss, my poly bushings, HP Plus brake pads, Hotchkis adjustable sways, and fixed back seats, good alignment, along with full bolt ons less H/C's, I think My car is probably faster around curves than a STOCK C5Z right now....and about as fast in a straight line.
might be fun to find out :-)
My HP is probably about the same as a stock C5Z already, and I haven't done Heads/Cam yet.
What rear diff ratio comes stock in a C5Z?
I have a 3:42 now.
although I think with just a little more power my car will be faster than any fully stock C5Z even if it has a good alignment...my handling and breaking is better already, and I've got the weight down to around C5Z levels.
With 100+ lbs of weight loss, my poly bushings, HP Plus brake pads, Hotchkis adjustable sways, and fixed back seats, good alignment, along with full bolt ons less H/C's, I think My car is probably faster around curves than a STOCK C5Z right now....and about as fast in a straight line.
might be fun to find out :-)
My HP is probably about the same as a stock C5Z already, and I haven't done Heads/Cam yet.
What rear diff ratio comes stock in a C5Z?
I have a 3:42 now.
Last edited by David426; Feb 8, 2013 at 08:30 PM.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,240
Likes: 1
From: Orange County California
I had a modded 99 C5 and currently own a modded 2002 C5 Z06.. All I can say is that even in stock form, the Z06 is a better track car than a modded C5 Coupe, hands down.. A small cam will get you up to Stock Ls6 horsepower and torque (355rwhp).. Headers and a LS6 intake manifold won't do it alone.. You are close to the same weight..as a Z06 with your weight reduction.. The Z06 has much better Transmission ratios also, than a base manual tranny C5..
I debated between a Vert and a Z06 when shopping for mine, but I had had a coupe before and was always wishing it was a Vert, so I went in that direction.