Clutch replacement question
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 6,644
Likes: 479
From: OK
So, I bought a 2004 Z06 and the clutch and brake fluid were pitch black. Ive flushed the brake fluid and used a syringe to replace fluid in the clutch master. My car still has issues shifting into 3rd when accelerating hard. Clutch pedal goes hard. im assuming this is because the clutch fluid is garbage in the rest of the system. Im going to have Able Chevrolet replace the clutch/fw/master/slave/tob and add a remote bleeder.
My question is. I dont know if the previous owner ever put a different clutch in the car to begine with. So, what if there is an aftermarket clutch in the car already and it doesnt have the "match balance" marks on the flywheel? Im not currently getting any driveline vibration so thats not a current problem.
My question is. I dont know if the previous owner ever put a different clutch in the car to begine with. So, what if there is an aftermarket clutch in the car already and it doesnt have the "match balance" marks on the flywheel? Im not currently getting any driveline vibration so thats not a current problem.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,892
Likes: 46
From: Helotes TEXAS
And for what its worth.... my nephew is NOT the mechanic at the dealership, he's the Service Manager. I have stated this time and time again....
Last edited by Sinister-one; May 9, 2015 at 10:59 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,836
Likes: 244
From: Dear Karma, I have a list of people you missed.
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
So, I bought a 2004 Z06 and the clutch and brake fluid were pitch black. Ive flushed the brake fluid and used a syringe to replace fluid in the clutch master. My car still has issues shifting into 3rd when accelerating hard. Clutch pedal goes hard. im assuming this is because the clutch fluid is garbage in the rest of the system. Im going to have Able Chevrolet replace the clutch/fw/master/slave/tob and add a remote bleeder.
My question is. I dont know if the previous owner ever put a different clutch in the car to begine with. So, what if there is an aftermarket clutch in the car already and it doesnt have the "match balance" marks on the flywheel? Im not currently getting any driveline vibration so thats not a current problem.
My question is. I dont know if the previous owner ever put a different clutch in the car to begine with. So, what if there is an aftermarket clutch in the car already and it doesnt have the "match balance" marks on the flywheel? Im not currently getting any driveline vibration so thats not a current problem.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 6,644
Likes: 479
From: OK
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,892
Likes: 46
From: Helotes TEXAS
This is not something you can just ask him to "put on the work order" so his techs "do the right thing". The match balance issue is something that takes a good detailed conversation. We are recommending that you MATCH BALANCE the clutch assembly. Which means having your FW/PP COMBO assy MATCH BALANCED to your stock FW/PP COMBO assy. I am 99.9% certain he won't be familiar with this. I am 99.9% certain they do not have the equipment at the dealership to do it either. They don't build engines there and they aren't a machine shop supporting engine builds. I am 99.9% certain they do not have the means to balance rotating assemblies. (NOT a tire balancer 
)
IF they were familiar with this issue, they might be familiar with just transferring balance weights from your stock flywheel to the new one. Well, I am also 99.99999% sure that your aftermarket Spec flywheel DOES NOT even have the 12 circumferential holes in the perimeter of the flywheel that act as receptacles for the balance weights. So you couldn't transfer weights anyway. Which isn't so bad anyway, because transferring weights is a poor way to attempt an assembly balance.
1. It doesn't take into account the variances in beginning flywheel imbalance, due to balance tolerances.
2. It completely ignores the pressure plate and their variances due to as delivered balance tolerances.
The ONLY way to ensure you have the same state of balance of your entire clutch assembly as that of your stock clutch assembly is to MATCH BALANCE the new assembly to the stock assembly. That means FW/PP together matched to original FW/PP together. That is not something that he is likely able to do at the dealership. You would need to have that done at a good machine shop that can balance rotating components (like crankshafts). And then you would need to find a shop that knows how to MATCH instead of just zeroing everything. You'd be surprised how difficult that seems to be.
Your nephew is MOST LIKELY going to recommend just installing your new clutch assy straight out of the box. And that may turn out to be JUST FINE. There is a good chance that will be fine. There is also a good chance you feel new vibrations you did not feel before. I'm sure your nephew is a very talented and awesome mechanic, but this is something almost no one is familiar with.
I sincerely hope it turns out great for you, because chasing vibrations SUCKS.
Good luck and please let us know how this turns out. Please let us know how the discussion, if there is one, goes.
) IF they were familiar with this issue, they might be familiar with just transferring balance weights from your stock flywheel to the new one. Well, I am also 99.99999% sure that your aftermarket Spec flywheel DOES NOT even have the 12 circumferential holes in the perimeter of the flywheel that act as receptacles for the balance weights. So you couldn't transfer weights anyway. Which isn't so bad anyway, because transferring weights is a poor way to attempt an assembly balance.
1. It doesn't take into account the variances in beginning flywheel imbalance, due to balance tolerances.
2. It completely ignores the pressure plate and their variances due to as delivered balance tolerances.
The ONLY way to ensure you have the same state of balance of your entire clutch assembly as that of your stock clutch assembly is to MATCH BALANCE the new assembly to the stock assembly. That means FW/PP together matched to original FW/PP together. That is not something that he is likely able to do at the dealership. You would need to have that done at a good machine shop that can balance rotating components (like crankshafts). And then you would need to find a shop that knows how to MATCH instead of just zeroing everything. You'd be surprised how difficult that seems to be.
Your nephew is MOST LIKELY going to recommend just installing your new clutch assy straight out of the box. And that may turn out to be JUST FINE. There is a good chance that will be fine. There is also a good chance you feel new vibrations you did not feel before. I'm sure your nephew is a very talented and awesome mechanic, but this is something almost no one is familiar with.
I sincerely hope it turns out great for you, because chasing vibrations SUCKS.
Good luck and please let us know how this turns out. Please let us know how the discussion, if there is one, goes.
Last edited by Sinister-one; May 9, 2015 at 05:04 PM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,892
Likes: 46
From: Helotes TEXAS
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 882
Likes: 88
From: Livermore Ca
I'm replacing the clutch because
1) I want a lighter flywheel
2) if I'm in there to add a remote bleeder I might as well replace everything so I know what's in there
3) I'm going to be doing some engine work in the near future and not knowing what's in there I'm not sure if it'll hold
The name of the thread is clutch replacement question. I had a question so I asked it. I didn't see any harm in that and thankfully the OP doesn't either. Thanks.
1) I want a lighter flywheel
2) if I'm in there to add a remote bleeder I might as well replace everything so I know what's in there
3) I'm going to be doing some engine work in the near future and not knowing what's in there I'm not sure if it'll hold
The name of the thread is clutch replacement question. I had a question so I asked it. I didn't see any harm in that and thankfully the OP doesn't either. Thanks.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,836
Likes: 244
From: Dear Karma, I have a list of people you missed.
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
Now, why do you want a lighter flywheel? Are you planning on road-racing? A lot of road racers like L/W flywheels, but on a DD or mostly street driven car they can be a pain, driveability-wise.
Having all new clutch components to address a current problem on a car you just bought, although a little spendy, is not a bad idea if you can afford it. At least you'll know definitively what you have installed, and won't be guessing.
If you don't have a balance/vibration issues now, you might want to consider match balancing your new parts to what you have in the car.
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Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 296
Likes: 33
From: Virginia Beach VA
Most aftermarket flywheels don't have them. You can at least transfer weights if you decide to go that route. It's not the best way, but it's better than nothing.
Is it in fact an aftermarket Spec flywheel or a GM stock flywheel? You just said "It a SPEC Stage 2 single disc setup". Forgive my ignorance, but does that mean you have a Spec flywheel too, or some other flywheel, like a GM stock replacement?
Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 296
Likes: 33
From: Virginia Beach VA
Yep, I understood that your nephew is the service manager and not the tech/mechanic actually performing your clutch replacement. That's why I said "This is not something you can just ask him(your nephew) to "put on the work order" so his techs (the mechanic/mechanics doing the job) "do the right thing".
I said he is probably a wonderful mechanic because I am assuming a good service manager is ALSO a good mechanic in his own right. Not that he is doing this job.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 882
Likes: 88
From: Livermore Ca
Now, why do you want a lighter flywheel? Are you planning on road-racing? A lot of road racers like L/W flywheels, but on a DD or mostly street driven car they can be a pain, driveability-wise.
If you don't have a balance/vibration issues now, you might want to consider match balancing your new parts to what you have in the car.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,836
Likes: 244
From: Dear Karma, I have a list of people you missed.
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
As for the clutch pedal issue, I experienced much the same thing a few years back (mine's primarily street driven) with a OE Z06 replacement clutch, as well as an aftermarket single disc. I installed a Tick M/C and McLeod RST double-disc and been happy ever since. I can (and sometimes do) zing the engine up to 6500 to 6800 rpm with zero pedal issues, ever. The little extra pedal pressure I have now, I can easily deal with. AAMOF, I'm very used to it by now.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 6,644
Likes: 479
From: OK
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,892
Likes: 46
From: Helotes TEXAS
That's awesome!
Most aftermarket flywheels don't have them. You can at least transfer weights if you decide to go that route. It's not the best way, but it's better than nothing.
Is it in fact an aftermarket Spec flywheel or a GM stock flywheel? You just said "It a SPEC Stage 2 single disc setup". Forgive my ignorance, but does that mean you have a Spec flywheel too, or some other flywheel, like a GM stock replacement?
Most aftermarket flywheels don't have them. You can at least transfer weights if you decide to go that route. It's not the best way, but it's better than nothing.
Is it in fact an aftermarket Spec flywheel or a GM stock flywheel? You just said "It a SPEC Stage 2 single disc setup". Forgive my ignorance, but does that mean you have a Spec flywheel too, or some other flywheel, like a GM stock replacement?
Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 296
Likes: 33
From: Virginia Beach VA
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 882
Likes: 88
From: Livermore Ca
The Monster clutch that I purchased comes with a steel SFI rated lightweight flywheel. Not sure of the manufacturer but it's supposed to be 18lbs.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 296
Likes: 33
From: Virginia Beach VA
I believe the Monster flywheels do not have the 12 circumferential thru holes around the perimeter, designed as balance weight receptacles. None that I have seen have them.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,892
Likes: 46
From: Helotes TEXAS
The flywheel is from Gripforce. It weighs 23 lbs.
Last edited by Sinister-one; May 11, 2015 at 09:51 AM.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 296
Likes: 33
From: Virginia Beach VA
Thank you very much for that. I just looked it up and it is their OEM style standard flywheel. It does indeed have the 12 holes (probably because it is a true OEM design). Almost NO aftermarket flywheels (for corvette) have these holes.
Here is a link you may or may not find interesting.
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vem...-engine-build/
It shows an LS3 build at Wixom and shows their hot balance process, where they do a final post assembly balance on the entire engine. This is when they install the FW weights and/or damper weights, and is what makes these engines "slightly externally balanced". It's a very unique situation. This is an INTERNALLY BALANCED engine that is then EXTERNALLY FINE TUNE BALANCED. FYI, the current C7s and Camaro Z28s are also done this way.
Again, good luck with everything, and I hope everything goes smoothly.
Here is a link you may or may not find interesting.
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vem...-engine-build/
It shows an LS3 build at Wixom and shows their hot balance process, where they do a final post assembly balance on the entire engine. This is when they install the FW weights and/or damper weights, and is what makes these engines "slightly externally balanced". It's a very unique situation. This is an INTERNALLY BALANCED engine that is then EXTERNALLY FINE TUNE BALANCED. FYI, the current C7s and Camaro Z28s are also done this way.
Again, good luck with everything, and I hope everything goes smoothly.
Last edited by thbwlZ; May 11, 2015 at 10:27 AM.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,892
Likes: 46
From: Helotes TEXAS
Thank you very much for that. I just looked it up and it is their OEM style standard flywheel. It does indeed have the 12 holes (probably because it is a true OEM design). Almost NO aftermarket flywheels (for corvette) have these holes.
Here is a link you may or may not find interesting.
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vem...-engine-build/
It shows an LS3 build at Wixom and shows their hot balance process, where they do a final post assembly balance on the entire engine. This is when they install the FW weights and/or damper weights, and is what makes these engines "slightly externally balanced". It's a very unique situation. This is an INTERNALLY BALANCED engine that is then EXTERNALLY FINE TUNE BALANCED. FYI, the current C7s and Camaro Z28s are also done this way.
Again, good luck with everything, and I hope everything goes smoothly.
Here is a link you may or may not find interesting.
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vem...-engine-build/
It shows an LS3 build at Wixom and shows their hot balance process, where they do a final post assembly balance on the entire engine. This is when they install the FW weights and/or damper weights, and is what makes these engines "slightly externally balanced". It's a very unique situation. This is an INTERNALLY BALANCED engine that is then EXTERNALLY FINE TUNE BALANCED. FYI, the current C7s and Camaro Z28s are also done this way.
Again, good luck with everything, and I hope everything goes smoothly.
