Need engine advice
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,198
Likes: 1,072
From: South Florida
You should watch
One of them built a whole 10 second car including the car for half of what that motor cost. It just depends on your overall goals. I mean, to me, its too cheap. I draw the line at air filters. So I easily spent double what any of them did to make the same power. But overall my swap is cleaner, more reliable. And if the engine fails, $500. Not $9000.
One of them built a whole 10 second car including the car for half of what that motor cost. It just depends on your overall goals. I mean, to me, its too cheap. I draw the line at air filters. So I easily spent double what any of them did to make the same power. But overall my swap is cleaner, more reliable. And if the engine fails, $500. Not $9000.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; Jun 4, 2018 at 06:47 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 50
From: Clayton, NC north carolina
Zeroxcel,
have you ever drivin a car with that much power before? the reason why I ask is because most folks have not... one of the reasons why there are so many videos if cars going into crowds (mustang videos) or silver corvettes crashing into each other is because most folks have no clue what they are getting into... I cant tell you how many times I've seen someone go from a 200hp Camry to a 505hp C6 Z06 and crash the hell out of it in front of their buddy's trying to show off. If you have please disregard this... if you have not. may I suggest the way I began... one modification at a time. do a stock rebuild on the short block and then just add headers intake and a mild cam... I promise it will be fun... then when you get bored of that step up to a set of stock ported heads and a more aggressive cam.
When I was a kid I had a 85' ford ranger that I put together myself to teach myself how to do things properly and eas into bigger power... the truck was a 2.8L v6 that I drove thru most of high school that way... I then stuck a 85 mustng GT 5.0L into it... I played with that upgrading the cam and porting they heads myself. all while slowly adding nitrous until I cracked a main cap in two. (I was working at a mom and pop machine shop at the time) so I was in the middle of building a "big inch windsor" at the time (back then We had to do all the work for stroker kits) I tool a cleveland crank turned the rod journals down used chevy rods and had pistons made to get the whole thing to work... when I was done... I had a 412 ci engine.... that went into the car with the ported 302 heads untill I could get a set of aluminum heads...... and thus a gear head was born... LOL!
the point of the story is I slowly increased power...
BTW my current career is building Jet engines here at General Electric....
have you ever drivin a car with that much power before? the reason why I ask is because most folks have not... one of the reasons why there are so many videos if cars going into crowds (mustang videos) or silver corvettes crashing into each other is because most folks have no clue what they are getting into... I cant tell you how many times I've seen someone go from a 200hp Camry to a 505hp C6 Z06 and crash the hell out of it in front of their buddy's trying to show off. If you have please disregard this... if you have not. may I suggest the way I began... one modification at a time. do a stock rebuild on the short block and then just add headers intake and a mild cam... I promise it will be fun... then when you get bored of that step up to a set of stock ported heads and a more aggressive cam.
When I was a kid I had a 85' ford ranger that I put together myself to teach myself how to do things properly and eas into bigger power... the truck was a 2.8L v6 that I drove thru most of high school that way... I then stuck a 85 mustng GT 5.0L into it... I played with that upgrading the cam and porting they heads myself. all while slowly adding nitrous until I cracked a main cap in two. (I was working at a mom and pop machine shop at the time) so I was in the middle of building a "big inch windsor" at the time (back then We had to do all the work for stroker kits) I tool a cleveland crank turned the rod journals down used chevy rods and had pistons made to get the whole thing to work... when I was done... I had a 412 ci engine.... that went into the car with the ported 302 heads untill I could get a set of aluminum heads...... and thus a gear head was born... LOL!
the point of the story is I slowly increased power...
BTW my current career is building Jet engines here at General Electric....
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,198
Likes: 1,072
From: South Florida
Zeroxcel,
have you ever drivin a car with that much power before? the reason why I ask is because most folks have not... one of the reasons why there are so many videos if cars going into crowds (mustang videos) or silver corvettes crashing into each other is because most folks have no clue what they are getting into... I cant tell you how many times I've seen someone go from a 200hp Camry to a 505hp C6 Z06 and crash the hell out of it in front of their buddy's trying to show off. If you have please disregard this... if you have not. may I suggest the way I began... one modification at a time. do a stock rebuild on the short block and then just add headers intake and a mild cam... I promise it will be fun... then when you get bored of that step up to a set of stock ported heads and a more aggressive cam.
When I was a kid I had a 85' ford ranger that I put together myself to teach myself how to do things properly and eas into bigger power... the truck was a 2.8L v6 that I drove thru most of high school that way... I then stuck a 85 mustng GT 5.0L into it... I played with that upgrading the cam and porting they heads myself. all while slowly adding nitrous until I cracked a main cap in two. (I was working at a mom and pop machine shop at the time) so I was in the middle of building a "big inch windsor" at the time (back then We had to do all the work for stroker kits) I tool a cleveland crank turned the rod journals down used chevy rods and had pistons made to get the whole thing to work... when I was done... I had a 412 ci engine.... that went into the car with the ported 302 heads untill I could get a set of aluminum heads...... and thus a gear head was born... LOL!
the point of the story is I slowly increased power...
BTW my current career is building Jet engines here at General Electric....
have you ever drivin a car with that much power before? the reason why I ask is because most folks have not... one of the reasons why there are so many videos if cars going into crowds (mustang videos) or silver corvettes crashing into each other is because most folks have no clue what they are getting into... I cant tell you how many times I've seen someone go from a 200hp Camry to a 505hp C6 Z06 and crash the hell out of it in front of their buddy's trying to show off. If you have please disregard this... if you have not. may I suggest the way I began... one modification at a time. do a stock rebuild on the short block and then just add headers intake and a mild cam... I promise it will be fun... then when you get bored of that step up to a set of stock ported heads and a more aggressive cam.
When I was a kid I had a 85' ford ranger that I put together myself to teach myself how to do things properly and eas into bigger power... the truck was a 2.8L v6 that I drove thru most of high school that way... I then stuck a 85 mustng GT 5.0L into it... I played with that upgrading the cam and porting they heads myself. all while slowly adding nitrous until I cracked a main cap in two. (I was working at a mom and pop machine shop at the time) so I was in the middle of building a "big inch windsor" at the time (back then We had to do all the work for stroker kits) I tool a cleveland crank turned the rod journals down used chevy rods and had pistons made to get the whole thing to work... when I was done... I had a 412 ci engine.... that went into the car with the ported 302 heads untill I could get a set of aluminum heads...... and thus a gear head was born... LOL!
the point of the story is I slowly increased power...
BTW my current career is building Jet engines here at General Electric....
It would be unwise to immediately dial it up to 25psi on the first shot. I don't think anybody that has common sense would do something like that. I feel like you do not understand the practical application of turbochargers if you cannot distinguish the operation of a wastegate.
Pro
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 535
Likes: 92
From: Raleigh NC
Again, it's important to consider your build goals. There's no single "right" way to do it. If you want a junk yard turbo motor to run 10's, that can be done. but just because it's fast, doesn't mean it's reliable. If you want a motor to run on a road course, lap after lap with reliability, then that's a different build. Again it just depends on your goals, your budget, and your willingness to keep swapping $500 motors if something lets go. Remember, cheap fast reliable... pick any two.
My point with the parts list I shared is that there are a lot of expenses outside of the big ticket items like heads, etc. When planning a build and a budget, it's important to consider all of the details.
Each component with 172k miles on it that you reuse during a build represents a potential failure point. You just have to understand your risk tolerance.
Not trying to push a single way to build a motor, just trying to share an accurate perspective on potential costs.
My point with the parts list I shared is that there are a lot of expenses outside of the big ticket items like heads, etc. When planning a build and a budget, it's important to consider all of the details.
Each component with 172k miles on it that you reuse during a build represents a potential failure point. You just have to understand your risk tolerance.
Not trying to push a single way to build a motor, just trying to share an accurate perspective on potential costs.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,198
Likes: 1,072
From: South Florida
Again, it's important to consider your build goals. There's no single "right" way to do it. If you want a junk yard turbo motor to run 10's, that can be done. but just because it's fast, doesn't mean it's reliable. If you want a motor to run on a road course, lap after lap with reliability, then that's a different build. Again it just depends on your goals, your budget, and your willingness to keep swapping $500 motors if something lets go. Remember, cheap fast reliable... pick any two.
My point with the parts list I shared is that there are a lot of expenses outside of the big ticket items like heads, etc. When planning a build and a budget, it's important to consider all of the details.
Each component with 172k miles on it that you reuse during a build represents a potential failure point. You just have to understand your risk tolerance.
Not trying to push a single way to build a motor, just trying to share an accurate perspective on potential costs.
My point with the parts list I shared is that there are a lot of expenses outside of the big ticket items like heads, etc. When planning a build and a budget, it's important to consider all of the details.
Each component with 172k miles on it that you reuse during a build represents a potential failure point. You just have to understand your risk tolerance.
Not trying to push a single way to build a motor, just trying to share an accurate perspective on potential costs.
Engines produced between 2002 and 2008 achieve 300,000 miles in fleet type settings in regular service. They are expected to. It is a given that if you acquire one with 150,000 that it could go to 300,000 miles if well maintained.
Engines assembled by random machine shops in comparison seem to fall within 5,000 to 30,000 miles range, with some exceeding 50,000 but it is extremely rare to see a documented case.
Alright so lets say you get over the machine shop hurdle by opening your own machine shop. You bought all the machines, $2,000,000 in equipment or whatever, and got all the mechanical engineering degrees necessary to machine your own engine so that it will also achieve 300,000 miles like a reliable stock engine.
SO what did you really achieve? Both the original engines and your perfectly assembled engine in the clean room now both go identical 300,000 miles. Good F@#*(&ing job on accomplishing nothing.
BUT WAIT- "Hey! What about my forged pistons and rods? Don't those count for something?"
Well, before 2002 I would have said yes. Forged parts allow engines to make more power than stock engines in general.
However, in 2002, GM started producing 3.8/5.3/6.0L Engines capable of going 300,000 miles that are also capable of handling approx 700/800/1000 RWHorsepower, respectively, and still achieve high mileage (please see stock bottom end reliability lists) like these:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...lity-list.html
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401429
If a stock 6.0L is holding 1000rwhp in several race cars reliably. Then what is a forged piston worth now? 1100? 1200 horsepower instead? Did you spend an extra $10,000 building an engine (plus the $2,000,000 in machine equipment remember) to add 100 or 200 horsepower? Heck no. If you want to put a forged piston into an engine it had better be for more than 100 extra horsepower. Pick another number. How about 1500rwhp. If you want 1500 horsepower or something its obviously not going to happen on a stock piston or rod.
So you didn't gain anything in the mileage dept even by doing all the machining yourself. And you didn't gain anything in power capability if your goal is below 1000 horsepower. I'd take a seasoned 80k 6.0L Stock truck engine babied over anything from any machine shop within 10x of the same cost for anything less than 1k rwhp.
Thread Starter
Cruising
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10
Likes: 1
I personally wouldn't trade an aluminum LS motor for an iron block unless you are going big boost FI, and mainly drag racing.
I do agree that there are ways of building cheap hp. Find an iron block take-out motor that's in good shape, throw a turbo on it, and run it until it blows up, and then repeat. However, I personally just don't have the time to keep pulling the driveline out of a C5 in my garage. I also like road course racing more than drag racing, so my engine goals are different.
I personally found it cheaper to reuse my existing block and crankshaft vs buying a short block. plus I got to pick what parts I wanted to use. but it would have been faster to just have a new short block show up, vs waiting on a machine shop. There's no such thing as a fast machine shop. They work on their own time, and you'll get your engine back on their time schedule. And a good machine shop will have all the work they can handle. you're just happy to get on their list.
when picking a machine shop, definitely check around. I learned a tough lesson the first time I had the engine in my 4.6L mustang built. I used a top notch shop that has been in the business of building race engines for the last 40 years. However, I later realize that my modular 4.6L motor was not their specialty, in fact it might have been one of the first they did. that motor lost oil pressure at 1500 miles because the bearing clearances weren't right. If I had a SBC motor, they were the best shop around... but not for a modular ford.
So the first question I asked my engine builder for the C5 was how many LS motors have you built. Turns out he did almost exclusively LS motors and has 5-10 builds going at any given time. Most of the speed shops in the area use him, and often drop off multiple engines at a time. You really want someone who builds your type of engine on a regular basis, and really knows the engine well.
Attached is a rough list of the parts that went into my build. You can see how quickly it adds up. And I really searched the internet to find the best price on things, find any holiday sales, plus I work for an auto parts retailer, so a lot of a basic gaskets/sensors/etc I could buy with an employee discount.
If you don't do track events you wouldn't need the oil pan baffles, and instead of the ATI balancer you could save a few bucks with a powerbond. But those are minor savings in the grand scheme of things. And not listed is a new water pump because I was able to reuse mine. And the list doesn't include an upgraded intake manifold.
I also decided this was the right time to install an upgraded DeWitts radiator. I also did new tires/wheels/tpms sensors. I also did Z06 springs and DRM Bilstein shocks. basically this one crack-addict saying to a future crack-addict... Be careful what you start! It's a slippery slope, haha.
I do agree that there are ways of building cheap hp. Find an iron block take-out motor that's in good shape, throw a turbo on it, and run it until it blows up, and then repeat. However, I personally just don't have the time to keep pulling the driveline out of a C5 in my garage. I also like road course racing more than drag racing, so my engine goals are different.
I personally found it cheaper to reuse my existing block and crankshaft vs buying a short block. plus I got to pick what parts I wanted to use. but it would have been faster to just have a new short block show up, vs waiting on a machine shop. There's no such thing as a fast machine shop. They work on their own time, and you'll get your engine back on their time schedule. And a good machine shop will have all the work they can handle. you're just happy to get on their list.
when picking a machine shop, definitely check around. I learned a tough lesson the first time I had the engine in my 4.6L mustang built. I used a top notch shop that has been in the business of building race engines for the last 40 years. However, I later realize that my modular 4.6L motor was not their specialty, in fact it might have been one of the first they did. that motor lost oil pressure at 1500 miles because the bearing clearances weren't right. If I had a SBC motor, they were the best shop around... but not for a modular ford.
So the first question I asked my engine builder for the C5 was how many LS motors have you built. Turns out he did almost exclusively LS motors and has 5-10 builds going at any given time. Most of the speed shops in the area use him, and often drop off multiple engines at a time. You really want someone who builds your type of engine on a regular basis, and really knows the engine well.
Attached is a rough list of the parts that went into my build. You can see how quickly it adds up. And I really searched the internet to find the best price on things, find any holiday sales, plus I work for an auto parts retailer, so a lot of a basic gaskets/sensors/etc I could buy with an employee discount.
If you don't do track events you wouldn't need the oil pan baffles, and instead of the ATI balancer you could save a few bucks with a powerbond. But those are minor savings in the grand scheme of things. And not listed is a new water pump because I was able to reuse mine. And the list doesn't include an upgraded intake manifold.
I also decided this was the right time to install an upgraded DeWitts radiator. I also did new tires/wheels/tpms sensors. I also did Z06 springs and DRM Bilstein shocks. basically this one crack-addict saying to a future crack-addict... Be careful what you start! It's a slippery slope, haha.
Thread Starter
Cruising
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10
Likes: 1
Zeroxcel,
have you ever drivin a car with that much power before? the reason why I ask is because most folks have not... one of the reasons why there are so many videos if cars going into crowds (mustang videos) or silver corvettes crashing into each other is because most folks have no clue what they are getting into... I cant tell you how many times I've seen someone go from a 200hp Camry to a 505hp C6 Z06 and crash the hell out of it in front of their buddy's trying to show off. If you have please disregard this... if you have not. may I suggest the way I began... one modification at a time. do a stock rebuild on the short block and then just add headers intake and a mild cam... I promise it will be fun... then when you get bored of that step up to a set of stock ported heads and a more aggressive cam.
When I was a kid I had a 85' ford ranger that I put together myself to teach myself how to do things properly and eas into bigger power... the truck was a 2.8L v6 that I drove thru most of high school that way... I then stuck a 85 mustng GT 5.0L into it... I played with that upgrading the cam and porting they heads myself. all while slowly adding nitrous until I cracked a main cap in two. (I was working at a mom and pop machine shop at the time) so I was in the middle of building a "big inch windsor" at the time (back then We had to do all the work for stroker kits) I tool a cleveland crank turned the rod journals down used chevy rods and had pistons made to get the whole thing to work... when I was done... I had a 412 ci engine.... that went into the car with the ported 302 heads untill I could get a set of aluminum heads...... and thus a gear head was born... LOL!
the point of the story is I slowly increased power...
BTW my current career is building Jet engines here at General Electric....
have you ever drivin a car with that much power before? the reason why I ask is because most folks have not... one of the reasons why there are so many videos if cars going into crowds (mustang videos) or silver corvettes crashing into each other is because most folks have no clue what they are getting into... I cant tell you how many times I've seen someone go from a 200hp Camry to a 505hp C6 Z06 and crash the hell out of it in front of their buddy's trying to show off. If you have please disregard this... if you have not. may I suggest the way I began... one modification at a time. do a stock rebuild on the short block and then just add headers intake and a mild cam... I promise it will be fun... then when you get bored of that step up to a set of stock ported heads and a more aggressive cam.
When I was a kid I had a 85' ford ranger that I put together myself to teach myself how to do things properly and eas into bigger power... the truck was a 2.8L v6 that I drove thru most of high school that way... I then stuck a 85 mustng GT 5.0L into it... I played with that upgrading the cam and porting they heads myself. all while slowly adding nitrous until I cracked a main cap in two. (I was working at a mom and pop machine shop at the time) so I was in the middle of building a "big inch windsor" at the time (back then We had to do all the work for stroker kits) I tool a cleveland crank turned the rod journals down used chevy rods and had pistons made to get the whole thing to work... when I was done... I had a 412 ci engine.... that went into the car with the ported 302 heads untill I could get a set of aluminum heads...... and thus a gear head was born... LOL!
the point of the story is I slowly increased power...
BTW my current career is building Jet engines here at General Electric....
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Racer
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 429
Likes: 24
From: Charlotte NC
1. http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...50&postcount=1
This thread is an excellent example of what one may face when attempting the rebuild routine.
I suspect the owner has a high amount of experience by the way the post is detailed.
This mistake can happen to those even with high amounts of experience, if o lions of engines are turned out a year, and computer controlled machines do most of the machine work? The closest thing I can think of to that is the OEM. The expensive forged parts aren't the problem; but they are not really an easy solution either apparently. the lack of attention to detail in every particular surface is critical to performance. And so is cleanliness. Clean and exact is just hard to come by.
This thread is an excellent example of what one may face when attempting the rebuild routine.
I suspect the owner has a high amount of experience by the way the post is detailed.
This mistake can happen to those even with high amounts of experience, if o lions of engines are turned out a year, and computer controlled machines do most of the machine work? The closest thing I can think of to that is the OEM. The expensive forged parts aren't the problem; but they are not really an easy solution either apparently. the lack of attention to detail in every particular surface is critical to performance. And so is cleanliness. Clean and exact is just hard to come by.
This is exactly the info I was searching for today to determine the best option on either going with a rebuild or going with a factory crate engine with a warranty. I'd like so much to have the original matching numbers but not the shorter engine life.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 50
From: Clayton, NC north carolina
Turbochargers have something called wastegate, which allows the use of low to no boost pressure when desired. A 3psi spring is typical first trial for a fresh installation.
It would be unwise to immediately dial it up to 25psi on the first shot. I don't think anybody that has common sense would do something like that. I feel like you do not understand the practical application of turbochargers if you cannot distinguish the operation of a wastegate.
It would be unwise to immediately dial it up to 25psi on the first shot. I don't think anybody that has common sense would do something like that. I feel like you do not understand the practical application of turbochargers if you cannot distinguish the operation of a wastegate.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,198
Likes: 1,072
From: South Florida
Here is what I know. Just about any stock 4.8, 5.3, or 6.0L $500 engine will support 500 horsepower for more than 50,000 miles.
Compared to a large percentage of $5000 rebuilt engines that support (some number of horsepower) for less than 10,000 miles, often at reduced performance due to assembly/parts errors.
It comes down to whether or not you want to drive the car, or work on the car. Because the ratio is around 10:1, that is, builds which include built engines typically cost 10 times as much over the course of the vehicle's life span and go 1/10 of the distance total.
Compared to a large percentage of $5000 rebuilt engines that support (some number of horsepower) for less than 10,000 miles, often at reduced performance due to assembly/parts errors.
It comes down to whether or not you want to drive the car, or work on the car. Because the ratio is around 10:1, that is, builds which include built engines typically cost 10 times as much over the course of the vehicle's life span and go 1/10 of the distance total.