Well, we are ready to take the big plunge as our "baby" is at the dealer for open heart surgery. I've finally narrowed the choices to a few... As usual, as I find out more info, I have more questions.

I have been talking to several, reputable tuners. However, the more you talk to, the more confusing it can become (Tuner A says one thing, Tuner B says another; if you ask about a combo that some have and are happy with you get - well that may work, but our stuff is better - buy it). Unfortunately, I also have to factor in the price; my budget is very tight. Prices range from $2,300 to $4,000 to reach our goal. Which one is correct?? Which one is the most cost effective?? We have explored a wide variety of combos, including the GM "Hotcam" and GMPP ported heads.

Here is the plan: Stage II heads with 918 springs, SLP double roller timing set and a fairly aggressive cam. Cam will be one of the following: 224/228 .581/.588 114 LSA; 224/224 .581/.581 112 LSA; or 226/226 .576/.576 113 LSA (with 1:8 rockers).

We are leaning towards the 226/226 cam with .544/.544 lift with the stock rockers (I'll upgrade to 1:8 rockers later). Initially, we will be running with better intake (Blackwing) and stock exhaust. As we save some more pennies, we will add headers and cat-back system (Borla, GHL, or Corsa).

Now for the questions... Are the stock pushrods tough enough to handle this set-up? For those that have run cams similar to these, does the car run ok without programming (I know it will run better with tuning, but it would be a while before I could get somewhere to have that done)? Will it run without throwing a bunch of codes? How has your mileage been affected by your heads & cam kits (like on a long trip, cruising at 75-80mph)?

Thanks in advance for your help!!

 

Hi John, Here are my thoughts, it appears the options you have chosen will will work well. The main thing I see that you are short cutting is tuning. Most H/C set ups will idle at 800 to 850rpm, with excellant streetability. Your mpg will not be effected greatly with a H/C package. Ours is still getting 28 to 30 mpg on the highway at 75mph. Don't short cut the tuning of the PCM, other wise you could be running too rich or too lean and have major problems.
Good Luck , Whiteboy

 

Being this position myself I KNOW what your going through and you only want to do this ONCE!!..My suggestion is to go with a vendor that KNOWS their business and to find a installer that you can trust to do the job right the first time. :smash;

Therefore...I'm recommending the Agostino Rcing Engines heads and cam package that I have and you can get it through MattG at www.exit28motorsports.com It's their "Street Eliminator " Aggressive Stage 1 Heads and the Lunati 226/226/554 Hydraulic roller cam.. :yesnod:

You will like it and it should fit well within you budget with a professional install!I would suggest that you consider the Underdrive pulley as well as it will save you some $$ by installing it at the same time..It's good for about 8-10
RWHP.. :yesnod: There will be some PCM programming to be done and that is available from several sources..but it IS necessary :yesnod:

I've done very well with this setup and both Wade at ARE and Matt G.at Exit 28 are pros who will answer you questions..Go for it!! :D

 

I second that ARE motion. I have their stage 1 with the 224/224 .58 and love it the street eliminator is a little cheaper and sounds to me like it is just what you are looking for.

 

I thought you had to send your heads back because they didn't perform properly the first time?

Anyways, as for the question at hand. Many people make good sets of heads. TEA, GTP, MTI would be at the top of my list. ARE, MMS, etc have been known to do well as well. The cams you chose are fine, but the 1.8 rockers have me thrown for a loop. WHY would you want those? Just get more lift in your cam and save the $$$ and use stock rockers. Nearly everybody else does.

A heads/cam package should run and drive fine on stock programming as long as you dont go too crazy with the cam, however, with a stock revlimiter its not going to be much more fun than stock to drive. If nothing else, you need it raised to 6700.

Cam choice is going to be hard to say. Everybody likes different cams. I've had 7-8 cams in my LS1 and I found the one I like the most. Others would settle on another cam I'm sure, but this is the one for my tastes. As long as you stay mid 220's for duration and target 550-580 lift it'll make the power, and on a 114lsa its gonna idle great as well. A 112lsa is going to make it more of a "nasty" cam with some lope, more of a gas smell in the exhaust, and it'll be harder to get to idle smooth.

 

The above advice sounds great. I have a 224 .581 @112 and it chops a little, shakes the car due to lack of tuning I guess. This size cam needs tuning as it idles like crap and throws coeds. After I drilled a 9/64" hole in the TB it idled better. It dies when I come to a fast stop sometimes. The power band is up there it doesn't hit until 3800 or so. I would run a 114 unless you like the muscle car sound and shake. I don't see a need for the timing chain set. It requires you lower th oil pan and the stock chain holds up well! I bought some stock valve CNC heads for 1800 I think they make good power.

 

DONT DO IT LEAVE IT STOCK I JUST CHANGED MY H/C and I hate it . I have a 99 a4 I went with a 222/226 duration and I lost so much torque that the car isnt fun to drive because the power comes in between 5000and 7000 rpm and this cost me more money because I had to chnge the car around to work with this cam by adding 390 gears and a2800 converter to fit the cam and Im still not happy horsepower is good but its not worth it if you loose 50lbs of torque on the bottom end

 

The full roller rockers offer reduced friction and, thus, a little better fuel economy. I'd expect to lose some mpg with an aggressive cam and this would allow me to gain some back - at least in theory. Now, if a good 1.7, full roller rocker set was available, it wouldn't be an issue in cam selection.

The 112 LSA cam is obviously the more aggressive...when you talk about a gas smell, is it really noticeable :confused:

Thanks to you, and everyone else, that responded. I appreciate all the help :D

:cheers:

 

Since we already have roller rockers, just adding a little roller tip isn't going to do much. There are replacement 1.7 ratio jesel rockers available if thats what you want.

If you want a powerful car that idles great, and doesnt scream "i have a cam" in the exhaust note, get a 224/224 on a 114 or a 227/224 on a 114lsa. If you want a "no drivability issues at all" cam, go with the 221/221 on a 114lsa. If you want a boy racer cam that lopes with no horsepower sacrificed, get a 230/224 on a 111lsa. All cams I named should have the lift around .560-.570.

BTW, I get 30-32pg in 6th gear on long highway trips. 392rwhp, heads/cam but stock exhaust manifolds, stock cats, stock mufflers. Nobody would know my car was modded even if they looked under the hood or had the car on a lift. I went with the 227/224 114lsa cam, and I posted a video on here of the idle. Do a search if curious.

 

Who did your heads and cam install? DId you get any tuning? What LSA is your cam? Where did you buy your heads from. There's no reason for you to have experienced what you have.

 

FWIW...That was my call..The first set of heads were stock heads with stock valves and some porting and polishing..I tried to out smart Wade and i thought differently after the fact..The new heads are much more agressive !

You know..shoulda..woulda..coulda..My call not Wades..He did good for me the second time around..all is well now..!:D I would just like to see some Cooool weather down here in the steambath of South Florida... ;)

 

The .581 lift cams are pretty aggressive, I'd recommend the lower lift for your choice of springs...I think your stock pushrods will be fine...(besides, if something goes wrong, it might be better to have an inexpensive pushrod bend instead of the alternatives...:)

 

I would think twice about using a big cam with 1.8 rockers, because, in my opinion, you're looking for valve/piston problems. The 1.8's will increase the lift of the cam too much, but you may want to talk to a tuner about this. First of all, you have to know how you're going to drive the car, for example, will it see strip duty, will it be daily driven, will it have to pass emissions, all of these things will effect your choice. The XE-R comps that you're looking at have pretty aggressive ramps, and are pretty tough on springs, but I understand that they do perform well. As far as cam choices, I'd call Andy@a&a corvettes (he's a forum vendor), because I think that he has tried just about every cam made, and really knows his stuff. This is just my .02.

You may also want to check out this thread, as it is probably the best geal going for a H/C car. It even includes tuning for that price. It's in the middle of the page.Good Luck!

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=389855


[Modified by LuvmyC5, 11:21 PM 10/27/2002]

 

John, just my op on the pushrods. Your engine is only going to be as strong as it's weakest link. Sure, if I wanted anything to break, I'd rather it be a pushrod. But just how many times are you going to want to replace that rod (along with new bolts and gaskets) before you decide to get a stronger one? Not to mention the enconvienence and when/where it happens. The stock pushrods are very flimsy and you can flex them in your hands. Upgrade to something that matches you h/c package.

David

 

That logic is interesting, but I'll disagree.

First, what gaskets and bolts need to be replaced when swapping pushrods? I'll answer....NONE.

Second, if you got into a situation where the valvespring wasn't enough to control valve float, piston to valve contact is likely to happen. When this happens, something has to give. Either your valve is going to bend, lodge itself into the piston, shatter the piston, or the pushrod will crack (hardened) or bend (stock). Now, assuming the stock pushrods can handle the normal load of the stiffer springs, which, IMO, they probably can, they'll be fine to use and will indeed be the weakest link. I'd rather have a $6 part bend that requires 20 minutes of labor to replace than to cause a $800 head repair, or worse yet, a $3500 shortblock repair.

That being said, if everything is setup correctly and nicely, the above scenario will never happen and hardened ones are perfectly fine.

 

I'm going through my own heads/cam install (doing it myself in my garage) right now, so I'm very near to these issues. You mention the pushrods... just a word to the wise: with any h/c setup, you need to make sure you maintain as close to the stock valve-train geometry as possible. If your selected cam has a smaller base-circle-diameter (it usually does, as it is generally the case on 'higher performing' camshafts when compared to the stock camshaft - it's all relative), then you need to make up for the 'slack' created by the camshaft swap. Either your heads will need to be milled a small amount to compensate (being Stage II, they probably are) or you will need a LONGER than stock push-rod. If you go the tuner route they will handle this for you. Just make sure you get all the facts on your install, as it will help you down the road if you ever have to service it yourself, etc.

I'm paying that price right now. Whatever you do, insist on FULL DOCUMENTATION on what was done to your car, including part #'s, component dimensions (how much the heads were milled, valve spring setup, etc.) Don't just pay a bill and drive away leaving your old parts there, etc. because you cannot count on the tuner to maintain any kind of documentation on what they did to your car if you need to find it out 6 mos, 1 year, 2 years etc. after the fact. I did this my first time around, and I've paid for it, but I've learned a lesson, as well.

As far as tuning goes, you're going to almost have to get the car tuned in order to realize its full potential. Chances are it'll fire up and run on stock programming (I didn't say how well, though! ;)) so either find someone who is good w/ LS1-Edit or work it out with the tuner to include programming in the package price.

Gas mileage will suffer a little, but it shouldn't be anything major. Jmx's experience with the MPG is spot-on. You'll no doubt drive the car harder now because the power will be there, so be aware of that. On highway cruises, it'll probably be at or near the same to what you have seen in the past with the car stock/bolt-ons.

You have to give a little to get a little! ;) This is all about compromise.

Good luck!


[Modified by AllCammedUp, 6:50 AM 10/29/2002]

 

Hey John,

Like you said, there will be several different opinions for sure. Research wisely. I did the install and tuning on Vince's Vette and it seems to work well. I also made this post a short while ago and will put a bit of it here.

"Hey All,

With all the talk lately of all the big numbers with LS6 heads, huge cams and off road (no cats) packages out there being talked about lately, I figured I would throw in one of our latest daily driver emission packages that we just did.

It was on a 99 Camaro SS with 3.73's, but you all can relate I would imagine. This used our standard Stage 2 CNC Ported and hand finished LS1 heads with 2.02" intakes and 1.57" exhaust valves with Comp 918 springs and titanium retainers and milled for 11-1 compression. The cam is a Comp 220/220 .560/.560 on a 113LSA . We used an LS6 intake and MAF, TTS headers with their cats and a B&B exhaust. There was also an underdrive pulley and Fastchip program. The intake is a Volant and similar to a BPP Vortex.

The numbers ended up at 409RWHP and 390RWT. The HP peaked at 6300 and the TQ at 4700 with 26-27 degrees of timing and an A/F ratio of 12.8-13.2. This also has a steel flywheel, stock wheels and tires as well as the 3.73's mentioned above. Idle is very good with a lope to it and hot or cold start up is excellent with no stalling or idle search issues. Good low idle characteristics in traffic and driveability and will pass emissions.

Like I said before, these are not the ultra high numbers most have talked of lately with the big 220+/230+ duration cams on a 112LSA and 11.5+ compression or LS6 heads. Rather a good daily driver combination for everyday driving.

We did do a 2002 Z06 a bit ago that did 440RWHP and 400RWT with a 224/228 cam and 11-1 compression through stock cats if y'all need bigger numbers :D

The Stage 2/Comp 220/220 is one of our Basic Heads/Cam Packages that run $4795 installed with heads, cam, moly pushrods, tuning, gaskets, bolts, fluids, oil & filter change and dyno runs."

We did just finish a 2000 A4 Vette with the same package through cats and made 393RWHP and 385RWT.

As far as the mileage question, we just took the mentioned Z06 on a 250 mile round trip to Bradenton and back and got 28MPG with highway, in town and some "brisk" driving :D

A parts package with heads, cam and pushrods will run $2495 exchange. You will need programming for optimal performance.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Mike

 

Have a smaller cam...218/224 but let me put in my .02 for the installer. Norris does top gun work and I drove this cam without tune because of the same old "how do you get Cole to tune" thing. Have it tuned now and will post my 11s next week.

 

I didn't dyno my car before, but after my mods (in my sig), my dyno curve is awesome. The same day I dyno'd, my buddy with stock motor and headers also ran his on the same dyno and his torque curve didn't have nearly the area under it. I couldn't believe how much area is under my torque curve. I'll try to scan my dyno run and post it soon. It sounds like something with your setup isn't right. Do you have a dyno graph of your car after your mods?

 

SD, I have to respectfully disagree. If by chance he ever over revs his motor, he's going to wish like hell that his pushrods had bent instead of his valves bending and his pistons being trashed. Look at the mods in my sig... I spin my motor to 6700 RPM often and have not had a problem with any pushrods bending in over 6K miles since the H/C upgrade using stock pushrods. The only time I bent a pushrod was when I was off a tooth on my cam, and thank God that I had stock pushrods. I even purchased hardened pushrods because I wanted to try shorter ones. As soon as I determined I could run the stock length ones or the shorter ones, the hardened ones came out as fast as I could park my ride and do the deed. I'd venture to say that you would have a hard time bending a stock pushrod without abusing it past it's capabilities, which is well above 7K RPMs.