Does anyone have the HAL shocks and/or suspension components for a C5? I'm thinking about getting them and am curious about your thought/opinions

Thanks guys! (and gals where applicable)
:cheers:

 

there was one just posted, take a look a couple of posts down. :D http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=419201 :seeya





[Modified by DsC5, 1:32 PM 10/25/2002]

 

I have them on my car and like them a lot.
At the drags trip they work best at 0 front and 7-12 rear and at the street I´m still testing, but seems 5 front and 6 rear is very nice setting.

Michael

 

Got it! Thanks! :cool:

(timing is everything!) :yesnod:

 

Michael, after having had them for a short while now, do you think they'll meet your needs or are you wishing you had gone for a high(er) dollar compression+rebound adjustable setup? Please don't make me feel guilty for advocating a HAL setup. :blueangel:

 

If modding a brand new C5 (non M12) my list of first mods would be gears and then adjustable shocks (Hals). Penske's are about $1200 more.


[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 11:21 AM 10/26/2002]

 

Indeed, and I do have both. :D

What I was curious about was Michael's assessment now that he has them since he initially felt that he needed both compression and rebound adjustment. I didn't feel that something like the Penskes was cost effective for his application and advocated the HALs.

 

I cannot say if other shocks would have gained me more.....don´t know.
But I´m happy I followed your recommendation to get the HALs.
They work good.
I´ll invest the saved $ into my enginenow. :D

:cheers:

Thanks,
Michael

 

I've had them for over a year.....great shocks...I set them, 5 front and 6 rear...for everyday driving. :cheers:

 

The Koni single adjustable shocks are superior on the C5 and can be had for around $865/set, they are your best choice short of custom racing shocks (not recommended):

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=414199

Koni Part No 3013-1023 front & 3013-1024 rear

 

I have had Koni's and agree that they are great shocks..but I would never say they are the best.

 

They are not the best shock "period". IMO no such thing exists (although each manufacturer will claim different) and I did not mean to convey that they were. For an adjustable shock absorber in the $1,000/set price range they are superior to the HAL shock in both design and operation. I know of no other adjustable shock absorber for the C5 in this price range that comes close to the performance value offered by the Koni 3013's. That's what I meant as "best choice". With some custom mods that would raise the price to approx. $1,500/set I would not hesitate to run them head-head against a $2,000/set of custom Penske SA's. Very few people need or want to pay $500 - $1,500/corner for adjustable racing shocks.

 

Like I said I have had Koni's but you offer no justification in your claim, only your opinion..if they are better than the Hals as you suggest please explain and share information with us (valving, rebounding, damper..etc..). I have not seen a car equipped with Koni's (adjustable setting) on any of the faster 1/4 mile times with the Koni's but I know that Wade's old C5 had them on and he ran 9.2's at 155, and Austrian Vette is using them and is in the 9's. So please gives us a detailed description of your analysis..otherwise it seems you are just justifying your equipment because you bought it......Like I said I have ran both shocks (Hals and Koni's) and Bilsteins...I have not tried the Penske's yet...but Chuck Mallett sure seems to like them...so does that Doug Rippie guy.

 

I probably should have been more specific about the purpose of the shocks. My car is having a procharger installed, I'll be running BFG Drag Radials and I'm primarliy concerned with the 60 ft performance. Also, while I am not interested in improving the handling of the vehicle, I do not want it degraded.

From the previous posts, it sounded like you can set the HAL's to different settings (i.e. drag racing, autocross) depending on what you plan on doing that day.

Just curious.. is a QA6 and a HAL the same thing?

Does anyone think that I should not go with the HAL's for this application? Any better options?

Thanks!

 

Yes the QA1's (6?) are Hals (QA1=racing sponsor). The fastest cars running the 1/4 mile all have Hals. Kind of seems like a no brainer...people can have opinions (but you know what they are like) and than there are the facts...Fact 1...the fastest C5's posting on this forum were using Hals...although I don't know what shocks SW was using when he first shattered the 9 second mark in his M6 422 Hartop. I don't know what the Cartek boys...C5pig, etc...using they are running fast 1/4 times. But the fastest stroker w/Nos and H&C car are using Hals...so thats all I can tell you. I have experienced Koni's, Eldebrock EAS, Bilstein, Stockers, and Hals...and so far the Hals are my favorite. If I thought there was better for the price...it is quite simple...they would be on my car. If I was interested in a track only shock I would ask Paul at VB&P to call Bilstein and have them custom valve the sport shock....because they can rebuild the shock to custom spec...for less than any Koni. New Koni's are between $900-1200. Custom Bilsteins are $400.

 

Pointing out that top drag cars only use HAL would be like me pointing out that nobody ever won an SCCA National championship on them either; it's not really very relevant as most owners aren't ever going to operate on that level of achievement. After using various adjustable shocks for many years, I bought my first set of custom Koni double adjustable shocks from Truechoice in 1995. That was the beginning of my real education in shock valving, tuning, and design for a variety of applications. Once you get some experience under your belt you quickly realize that guides listed in books are often over-simplified and don't often apply for a variety of reasons. I do not have those particular Koni's on my Z06, I have custom Koni 28 series double adjustable racing shocks. One of my Koni shocks costs as much as an entire set of HAL's. My Z06 was used by Koni for their first fitment of this racing application.

The Koni 3013 C5 shock is a production derivative of the Koni 30 series racing shock. The 30 series shock was Koni's top of the line offering up until the early 90's, being used in Formula 1 and other significant racing venues. It was superceded by the 28 series shock, but is still offered as a lower cost alternative. The 30 series design was chosen by Koni because like the OE C5 shock it is a monotube design, but also because of it's performance vs. cost value. In 2000 Koni NA borrowed a C5 Corvette owned by GH Sharp of SF Motorsports. GH is the east coast Koni distributor and you may have seen his name on the forum as also having the best Borla exhaust pricing in the country. Koni made a custom set of 30 series double adjustable shocks which they used to determine both the rebound valving adjustment range and the fixed compression valving setting. The production version of this shock lacks some of the features found in the custom version, which is why it has a $2xx/shock cost vs the $450/shock cost of a custom 30 series racing shock.

The majority of the difference is due to the 30 series racing shock being readily rebuildable and customized for a wide variey of applications while the 3013 C5 shock was intended to be used as-is for the C5 chassis. Through some prodding of myself and other competitors Koni NA took enough interest in the 3013 C5 shock to offer customizing, though it was never designed as such. I mentioned customizing in a previous post.

The technical merits. The Koni is a monotube design, the HAL is a double tube design. First, a monotube shock is generally considered to be superior to a double tube because it can use a much larger piston. A larger piston provides more precise and consistent valving, particularly for very small travel movements and in the low speed valving range. The low speed valving range is the area where body pitch and roll are controlled because these are low velocity shock travel movements as compared to a high velocity shock travel movement like like hitting a speed bump at 30 mph. A shock is not simply softer or stiffer; it is the softness or firmness relative to the shaft travel speed that determines the overall valving curve and determines performance. The technical aspects of valving curves are beyond what I care to discuss here. If either GM or Koni had put cost over performance they would have used a cheaper double tube shock than a monotube. As an example, had Koni built a double tube shock for the C5 it would probably sell in the $150/shock range, yet it would still be more sophisticated than the HAL shock.

The HAL shock adjustment changes both compression and rebound valving while the Koni adjustment changes rebound only. Most single adjustable shocks fall into either catagory. All the top-line single adjustable shocks; Koni, Penske, JRZ, Moton, etc. adjust rebound only, with compression being fixed. The other category is typically much cheaper, their performance is considered mediocre, and their adjustment range limited yet the HAL seems to have broken the low-cost mold while maintaining all the rest. The difference between the two designs would be the same as comparing a Mustang and a Corvette. You can make a Mustang go fast in a straight line, but the braking, handling, and ride are not as nearly as sophisticated as the Corvette. The reason the HAL shock adjusts both settings simultaneously is because it uses a crude yet simple bypass bleed valve as the adjustment method. The Koni shock uses a very sophisticated rebound-only adjustable valving cartridge that maintains the appropriate valving curve that was specifically designed for the C5 suspension motion ratios throughout it's full range of adjustment.

You generally do not want to increase or decrease the rebound and compression valving simultaneously, it can often have an offsetting or negative effect. Launching and controlling wheel hop in a drag race application is one example. You generally want soft compression valving in the rear for bite, but if you have to drop the rear rebound valving to achieve it you invite wheel hop; instead of the rear suspension compressing and setting as it would with soft compression and high rebound, an overall lack of dampening lets the rear suspension oscillate uncontrollably. To offset this drivers begin doing off the wall stuff like unhooking their front shocks and other oddball gimmicks rather than optimizing the steup properly. Sometimes racing series rules prevent you from doing what's optimum, but if your not optimizing the entire setup in the best possible manner when that option is open to you then you're probably not getting every last bit of performance possible. Gimmick setups usually sacrifice one aspect in performance to gain in another.

Frankly, it is a bit amazing to me that as much money as the top drag racers spend they use an off-the-shelf shock at all. For those people, I would neither recommend the Koni C5 shock or the HAL shock. Koni has shocks designed specifically for drag racing use and if I personally was going to pursue being the top Corvette drag racer I'd spend the money to have custom shocks built for my application. However, for the general drag racer you seem to agree with me that the Koni and HAL are at least on par with each other.

Just like the previous Mustang vs Corvette comparison though, the capability of the HAL shock can't compare to the Koni once you want to do more than accelerate in a straight line. The driver can have a lot to do with the end result. A good driver in a Mustang can beat a bad driver in a Corvette, but that doesn't change the fact that the Corvette is a superior car to a Mustang. It's the same between the Koni and HAL. That's the primary reason I would score the Koni as the better choice than the HAL; the Koni can equal, if not usually exceed, the HAL's capabilities. If the Mustang and the Corvette were the same price, or if the Corvette was even cheaper, which would you choose? The HAL shock is a rudimentary, low cost design yet it costs as much or more than the sophisticated Koni shock. IMO it's a no brainer. Typically on these types of forums people often make choices based more on urban legend than fact or knowledge.

Yes, the Bilstein non-adjustable monotube shock is considerable lower cost than either. I would recommend the Bilstein over anything else for anyone who wants a non-adjustable good all-around shock. Not being adjustable eliminates engineering design and manufacturing costs, so the difference in price between a Bilstein and a godd adjustable shock is not surprising. However, with a non-adjustable shock you have to take what you get. The valving that gives you a nice ride is not necessarily going to be the fastest around a corner or prevent wheel hop at the drag strip.

Shock valving is not always as straight forward as you think. With a non-adjustable shock you might have to go back and make several adjustments before you really get it optimized. If you make a significant change, there's a good chance you'll need to re-optimize again, assuming you understand enough to reralize what needs changing when and why. There was post recently in autox/racing area for somebody who bought a custom non-adjustable shock only to learn later that the reason he was having wheel hop issues was because even though they had it listed for his year and model chassis, the OE spring package he had was too stiff for the shocks to control them properly. Had he bought the Koni adjustable shocks he could have handled not only his springs, but also springs softer or stiffer than his. That's the advantage of an adjustable shock; you don't have to have your kidneys damaged during regular street driving or wallow through the turns at the autox or kittyfoot off the start because of wheel hop. You can within reason have your cake and eat it too. Sometimes an adjustable shock will need to have it's adjustment range changed, but that's usually once you get into racing setup applications, not the typical street mod stuff.

As for getting them customized, all those guys do is call up Koni or Bilstein or whoever and say "I need this for that", which you, or I, or anybody else can do too. I probably have more experience working with custom valving and tuning than some of the names you mention. I've been involved in a number of custom jobs, including people on this forum. I could post shock dyno curves on C5, 01 vs 02 Z06, Koni 3013, or Koni racing shocks and lay into a lot of technical terminology about shocks. I've tried to keep it simple and within laymans terms. Some of that stuff has posted and discussed already, do the search.

I wouldn't even have gone to this length except you pushed my button. The truth is you're the guy saying somebody else did this or that, you're the guy who has simply bought and installed shocks, you're the guy talking generalities, and you're the guy that doesn't really have any serious hands on experience with shock design, setup, and tuning. It seems to me that you're the guy you're talking about!

To be fair, over the years I've developed a bit of a relationship with Koni NA. I don't work for or profit from them, my goal has always been technical knowledge and assistance for my own racing use. It would be fair to say that I am biased towards Koni because of this, but you will never hear me say that Koni is superior to Penske or JRZ or Moton or whoever. There are reasons for people to choose one over the other, but in the end someone who knows what they are doing can make any car go equally as fast on any of those brands. I would not include HAL in that category.

The Koni 3013 C5 shock currently lists for $308/ea, most places sell it for the $225/ea jobber price. The main distributors are not allowed to sell them below jobber, but the end-seller can set any price they want. A few places sell the C5 Koni for around $215/ea. I can supply sources upon request. The fixed compression valving is a bit softer than the 2002 Z06 shocks. The rebound valving range is very wide; full soft is softer than than the std C5 shock and full stiff will handle all but the most extreme racing springs. To put the C5 Koni rebound valving range into concrete terms; about 20% softer - 250% stiffer than the 2002 Z06 shocks. You can adjust between a very nice ride, autox handling, or drag launching. Having installed and tuned them for other Z06 owners, I previously posted installation and adjustment info on this forum. For people who insist on running an extremely low ride height I suggest having them custom shortened. While it does add time and cost to the purchase, slamming the bumpstops over every bump or through every corner isn't good for you, you're Corvette, or the shocks.





[Modified by TeamZ06, 12:43 PM 10/28/2002]

 

Team Z06,
It appears that if you allowed your button to be pushed because you were asked to explain the shock valving differences between the Koni's and the Hals, to back up your claims in your statements, that you did through most of your Koni advertising campaign..that you are really acting like a kitty.

What was needed was the brief explanation that you almost talked about, but chose to keep in layman terms..so basically you gave us nothing but bragging about yourself and what appears to be some copy and paste works...now I am not one to hold a grudge....

So if you want to justify your claims and share some real information with the potential buyers of shocks..be it Bilstein, Koni, Penske, or Hal..then give us the technical information of each shock in a comparison..otherwise quit with the :bs

I could sit here all day and say that mine is or was better than yours but you made the statement earlier that the Koni's were the best and superior to Hals...and I gave merely some facts....you have given us nothing. Show us the techinical data not layman bull.

 

Guys,

You can't really say which shock is the best, but you can say what you like the best on your personal vehicle based on your personal preference if you had various shock brands on your car.

The Koni shocks are great, but are only a 5 step adjustable and the HAL shocks are also great because they offer more of a choice of damping and rebound rates since they are a 12 way adjustable shock.

At the prices we are offering on both the Koni shocks and the HAL shocks, it basically comes down to what you want.

We have the Koni and HAL shocks at the same price.

So, for the same price, most people would want to go with the HAL shocks because of the 12 way adjustable factor.

To each his own. Install whatever you like on your car and enjoy it.

Shawn

 

I love the Hal shocks....I have set them 0 all aroung for track to allow the front end to rise and shift weight to rear and allow the rear to squat.

 

I totally agree.....this is not the place for a sales campaign...present facts and specs, not hype. :cheers: