Good after noon.

Nearing the completion of a massive overhaul as I bring my track beast back closer to stock. All has been going very well until I got to the starter.

The old was original, 22 years old. Preemptively I decided to replace it while everything else was apart. AC Delco Gold part number 88864474.

I installed it, wired with the purple lead on the small post, then the battery cable, grey and brown wires on the larger brass post. Reinstalled the headers, plugs, dipstick and the coil packs and plug wires. Torqued everything, and attempted to start. Didn't happen. I had power, and the solenoid did it's job, but it did it over and over and over... Multiple "clicks" in short succession.

From what little I know and have been able to research, this is an indication of not enough power getting from the battery to the starter OR a bad starter from AC Delco. So, I pulled everything apart... again. I took the starter to two different auto parts places to check that the starter itself wasn't bad, and they both checked it as OKAY. I watched the second test, and it worked perfectly. Next step, replace the battery to starter cable. Got that done. Then, for good measure, I really cleaned each of the cable ends before installing them yet again. Hours later, I had everything back together again (less some blood, lots of sweat and lots of fiberglass shards from the wrapped headers...). Moment of truth.... click click click click, but no turnover.

It seems that the grey and brown wires are taking power off of the post that they share with the battery cable, so I don't know how they might be the problem. I do get the clicking when I turn the key so it seems that the ignition relay is functioning. What else is there?

I'm in need of your help. Where do I turn now?

Thank you in advance.

Jeff

 

You need to worry about the ground cable as much as the positive battery connection…take your DMM and place one lead on battery negative and the other lead on the engine block or starter housing if you can get to it…now crank the engine and tell me what the DMM shows in DC voltage…don’t worry 99.9% of professional mechanics can’t diagnose this starting circuit either…if you have a test light connect it to battery negative and touch the engine block with the tip while attempting to crank the engine…the test light should NOT light…do you have an understanding of what the ground does in this circuit ???…also if you have a heavy jumper cable connect it from battery negative to the engine block and see if the car starts.

 

First of all, thank you for your time, I really appreciate it.

Yes, I understand the purpose of the ground is to allow the circuit to be complete. Without it, the power from the positive side of the battery wouldn't move, and the starter won't engage. The power needs to "flow" through the starter and back to the battey.

On the DMM (mine is older with a needle rather than a digital readout), am I looking for DC current?

I won't be able to get back to it today, but I will tomorrow.

I appreciate your help.

Best, Jeff

I just saw your edit - Excellent idea! That's what I'll try first (jumper to block)

 

The current has to get back to the battery with little to no resistance !!…you are using an old analog DMM ??…actually these DMM’s do have their place in some circuit testing due to their low impedance….I wish I still had my old Simpson 260…not DC current..,you want voltage…current is amperage…we may need to get you schooled up on voltage drop testing…go to Harbor Freight and get yourself a $20.00 or less DMM and a 12 volt test light if you don’t have one…anyone that works on cars should have both.

 

That is a fast “bypass” test if the battery negative block ground is bad.

 

I will go there and get both tomorrow morning.

 

If you buy a DMM you should get yourself some 4mm banana jack test leads with back probes and piercing probes…they are cheap on Amazon…there are much better ones like from Fluke but I don’t know your budget.

 

Okay, I studied voltage drop and it makes sense. Since I have a brand new positive battery cable and cable end, the voltage under load, is probably close to battery voltage to the starter. However, there may be significant voltage drop AFTER the starter which is causing the flow of electrons TO the starter to be less than what the starter needs to engage. As a short term "fix/check" why not attach a ground wire to one of the starter mounting bolts and run it directly to the negative terminal post on the battery? It seems that is how most bench test starters. I know that the proper long term solution is to identify the voltage resistance and replace/repair those points. For now, a single "win" would be really appreciated!

I will perform the tests that you indicated and post them here.

Again, my humble thanks and appreciation for your time and expertise!

Jeff

 

No problem !!…a cable and not a wire would be needed to do a bypass test from the starter to battery negative terminal as the starter draws about 150 amps while cranking…the best “win” would be just to test the circuit and see where the resistance is…either between the negative battery post and terminal…between the battery negative terminal and the battery negative block ground which is above the starter and can be easily removed, cleaned, and reinstalled or maybe a bunch of paint on your engine block between it and the starter if a new or overhauled engine or just some heavy corrosion between those mating surfaces.

 

Well, I learned about voltage drop and how to test for it. I'm glad to have learned a valuable lesson. Thank you C5 Diag!

Just to follow up and close out this thread; i checked for voltage drop on both sides of the starter, positive and negative. The values were all really low and well within limits. I checked grounding points on the frame and the engine, all good. I decided to try starting the car. Click click click click... I then tried to jump the Vett with my F-150... It started right up! What????????

Several days ago (before I started this thread) I had taken the battery to Auto Zone to check it. I wasn't really to sure how much the sales person knew about cars (football - especially the Pats, Yes, cars???), but I assumed that he could at the very least accurately check a battery. Turns out I was wrong... So, having watched many videos I decided that I should check the voltage on my battery (which I had not done as I *** U MEd that the Auto Zone clerk knew what he was doing!). Guess what, 11.3 volts! According to one of the videos I watched, you have to have at least 11.6 to get the solenoid to close the circuit. Lesson learned... I bought a new battery and the car sprung to life and I learned about voltage drop and how to test for it!

So, the car is up and running and feeling good!

I know that you have helped a lot of folks here on the Forums, and I'd like to express my sincere appreciation for your ideas and support not just for me, but for everyone that you've helped. Thank you. I wish I lived closer to you - I'm sure that I could learn a massive amount from you and in return we would have some good laughs and maybe a few cold ones...

Jeff

 

Glad you got it started and if you can afford it get your own capacitance battery tester as they are not expensive…this is the one I’ve been using for a few years…I would make sure you don’t have a parasitic draw if you do buy a new battery and also do a voltage drop test on the charging system…and there is much to learn and just think of your voltmeter as a “difference” meter as you can test either the positive or negative side of a circuit…resistance testing is not how to do this as you may sometimes read here…the current must be flowing to do voltage drop testing…what do you fly…Part 121 ??

 

I fly part 91 and 135 now, mostly 91. I flew for AAL for 33 years and the Air Force prior to that. Do you fly? Not many people know what part 121 means!

Parasitic drain shows a .15mA. The limit is 0.05, correct? I checked each of the fuses under the hood, all good. I would have had to wake up the car and then trick close the pax door and wait for sleep mode to get at the fuses in the forward pax footwell. Have to go to work tomorrow so I disconnected the negative side of the batt and left the trickle charger on.

Couldn't do the voltage drop on the alternator - my cheap Harbor Freight DMM burned up My fault... What DMM would you recommend (without going over the top).

 

You can look read my profile…a rule of thumb unless there is a stated parasitic drain maximum it is the RC of the battery (in minutes) divided by 4…at 15 mA’s you’re fine…Fluke is the best and a not too expensive one below.

 

Ha! Makes sense now!
Here's mine Rob,
USAF: T-37A, T-38, C-21, KC-10
AALC-10-30, B757/767, A300/310, MD-80, A319/320/321
Flexjet: EMB-545 (it tried to kill me and the everyone on the jet! POS!)
Private firm: G-280, G-5 (G-450 and G-550)

Turning wrenches on my 03 retired from track duty, Z06

If I end up your way for an overnight, I'll buy you dinner!

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm going to order it now.

Jeff

 

Nice !!…so you were a “Gucci Boy” !!…if you ever fly into RSW let me know !!

 

Ya I guess I was....

We go into Naples quite a bit - often short notice, but if it lines up, I'll reach out to you!