Thanks Topless Texan for your input. As said before, when I get time, I'll look at some parameters and post them here for comments. Hopefully, Newberd will do the same. I wonder if there are others out there running this exact setup with no probs or the same probs. I WOULD like to resolve this and I'm sure there may be others thinking of a similar setup. Thanks again and I'll keep you posted. :cheers:

 

I'm thinking JR-CRUZN-C5 runs something very close but my memory is more hazy than it used to be. :(

 

ToplessTexan, is your email address in your profile correct? I emailed you the excel file I logged back in Apr. If you have time, take a look & see what you think. :cheers:

MickeyD, if you want a copy let me know. :)


[Modified by newberd, 8:35 PM 5/31/2003]

 

Hi Newberd. I'll take a copy if you don't mind. That way I have something to compare to. What were the conditions when you took the readings, ie. was this during an 1870 code or was this during a normal non-code situation? E-mail me at mdarr@joplin.com. Thanks!! :cheers:

 

Although my car never threw the 1870 code, my first aftermarket TCC locked and unlocked all the time at freeway speed, driving me crazy. When I autotapped, the TCC slip speed was measured at about 30 RPM, and it would fluctuate slightly. I first tried programming to solve the problem, but this didn't help. Interesting thing was the reprogrammed computer thought the slip speed had increased to around 250-300 RPM, which of course was not accurate. I finally replaced the TC and my measured slippage went to 0 while cruising, and coincidentally the lockup problem went away as well.

 

newberd, got your data and had a quick look at it. If I understand correctly it's a little over 7.5 minutes of data and doesn't have a P1870 occurance in it. I don't see anything that looks troubling. I'm thinking maybe I see slow TCC engaging but that's from a very quick look and I wouldn't put any weight on that observation.

Remind me again what converter you're using, A SY3500 right? And MikeyD is running a Y3000? FWIW, they do use different clutches, 10.5" in the SY and 10.0" in the Y. I think there are more FLP + SY3500s out there.

Can anybody elaborate exactly what PCM control is replaced with the FLP's vacuum setup? Is it just the pressure control solenoid circuits? The TCC solenoid valve control and TCC PWM solenoid valve control circuits are still used, correct? (The fact that newberd isn't noticing the converter release when the code throws bothers me. Most folks really notice it when it unlocks unexpectedly, it's very noticeable at freeway speeds.)

The ODB-II parameter I was trying to remember was TCC Mode. I had trouble getting this one in AutoTap, the folks at B&B kind of just shrugged and said the manufacturer must have hidden it from them. :bs EFILIve handles it just fine. We'll probably need some of the other parameters (the duty cycles and such) in addition to capturing a few occurances to zero in on the cause. If you can get some freeze frame data that might help in determining what it takes to make repeated observations.

 

ToplessTaxan, you're correct, the log I sent does not have the P1870 code set. I have the same TC as MikeyD, the Yank SY3000. And the FLP Level 4. I have the 342's vice his 315's.

I planned to AutoTap again using the parameters you suggested earlier but my notebook computer took a dump this afternoon. I have no info on exactly what Chuck does in his Level 4. As far as the PCM is concerned, he removed all the torque management & changed the shift times (shorter). I can see that when I compare the before & after LS1Edit files. But he made no changes to the 342 gear scaling or TCC lockup that is in LS1Edit. The only other thing that he changed was the fan turn on temps to match the thermastat.

The P1870 code has never set while I was at highway speed. It has been between 35 & 50mph. Nor have I noticed the TCC cycling on & off. TCC lockup operation feels just like it did before the mods. I had driven over 500mi at 75 - 80mph coming back from Chuck's shop that first night and was doing around 40mph when it set the first time. Now when it sets, I'm closer to 50mph, I assume because I moved the TCC lockup speed higher in an attempt to "tune" it out.

MikeyD, if I get my notebook back up & running I'll email the log file.

Just re-read your post ToplessTexan & I see the distinction you made between the SY3500 & the Y3000. I will have to go back & look at the box but I understood I was getting a SY3000. I'll double check.


[Modified by newberd, 8:11 PM 6/1/2003]

 

I did some autotapping this evening but I'm getting errors trying to save it as a .csv file. During the logging, it never set the 1870 code. Whats interesting though is the TCC PWM Duty Cycle was showing 96 % indicating the PCM was calling for TCC lockup, which it was. In a couple of log points,however, it dropped to 42% but I never noticed the TCC lockout dropping out. Maybe just a clitch? Another interesting thing is the TCC PWM Duty Cycle showed 96% even while in 1st through 4th gear. What do ya think Topless Texan?

I hope to take more readings, especially when it throws the code. Its very random. When I get in the car after it has set overnight or longer, the TCC never locks up. I check the codes and it hasn't thrown the 1870 code so that wasn't why it was not locking up. I can park the car for a few minutes, get back in and take off and then the TCC will loxkup as it should. (Maybe it's temperature related??) I went for several miles at highway speeds with no problems, it stayed locked up. Then out of nowhere, it throws the code. It does respond to the code though....the TCC unlocks and stays unlocked until I clear the code.


[Modified by MikeyD, 9:58 PM 6/1/2003]

 

I've seen the P1870 code only at slower speeds, 35 -50mph. Never at highway speeds.

I will see if I can get my data off my notebook hard drive tomarrow. If I can, I'll email you a copy of my April log file. I'll probably have to send my notebook off for repair. The one I'm using tonight doesn't have a serial port. USB only. :cheers:

 

The TCC PWM DC should always be near max above some low speed, like say 10 MPH or so. (Not just when lockup mode is commanded.) The only other time you'll see it drop is in TCC mode 2. The service manual describes this as the Apply mode and it indicates that the PCM has actually commanded lockup. Full lockup is mode 4. I think what you've described sounds like what one would expect to see.

There is a temperature gate to enable lockup, I forget whether it it's ECT or TFT, but it's near normal operating temp - nothing that you shouldn't reach if the car reaches normal operating temps. I only really notice it in the winter. I'm not too far from a highway and during the winter I can get a few miles down the road at highway speeds before I get warmed up enough to lock up.

Are either of you guys running auxiliary transmission oil coolers? What kind of thermostat/fan control settings are you using? What are your typical engine coolant and trans fluid temps?

newberd, I forwarded MikeyD the data you sent me.

Off to work...

 

I very seldom see coolant temps over 205 degrees F. As for the tranny, I have a tranny cooler but I haven't installed it yet. Without it, I'm seeing arouind 200 to 215 degress F on the transmission Temp (as indicated by the DIC). Thanks for the download. I haven't looked at it as I'm still here at work. I will later this evening. I still plan on trying to log soem more parameters during the 1870 code. When I get it, I'll send it to you. Thanks a mint for your input Topless Texan! :cheers:

 

I noticed the high speed TCC lockup you descibed during the winter/cold months, also. But that was when I had the stock TC.

I do have a tranny cooler installed at Chuck's reccomendation. I haven't seen any temps above 180*. I have a 178* coolant thermostat & Chuck changed the fan turn on temps. I haven't seen any coolant temps over 190*. I can't get to my Edit program to verify exactly what the fans are set for because of my notebook crash. :cheers:

 

I'm thinking I may have two issues now with the torque converter lockup and P1870 code :nonod:
Sometimes, I get in the car, start it up and drive down the road. The TCC may lock up but only after it gets well over 50 mph (like 55 -60). It'll lockup up fine but then at some point shortly after, it will disengage and stay disengaged. Thinking it set that dreaded P1870 code, I check only to find that it hadn't set any codes. At this point from then on, the TCC never engages the whole time I'm driving it and at any speed. It never sets the P1870 code during this time either. I can park the car and let it sit for a few hours, get back in it and start driving it again. The TCC will then start to engage as it should. I can drive it now at this point for several miles with the TCC engaging except for the few times it disengages due to now the P1870 code setting. I can clear the code while driving and the TCC will immediately lock back up as it should.
This whole thing is getting aggravating to say the least. I still plan on autotapping it some more but the last time I autotapped it was when the first condition mentioned above was happening where the TCC would never engage no matter what. The parameter "TCC PWM Duty Cycle" indicated 96.1% while the TCC Slip speed fluctuates between 190 to 230 RPM. Correct me if I'm wrong but if the TCC PWM Duty Cycle is indicating a high %, then the PCM is calling for TCC lockup. Is this right? :confused:

 

No, that's what I was trying to get at a few posts up. It's the TCC solenoid valve duty cycle (not the TCC PWM solenoid valve duty cycle) you want to look at to see when lockup has been commanded. The easier way would be TCC mode if it's available in your scanner.

TCC PWM DC should be "ON" at road speeds above about 10 MPH. It drops to intermediate DC values during apply(ing) mode (TCC mode 2.) I'll see if I can go dig up a graphic...

Try this. It's a snippet from a log containing a bunch of the parameters called out above. (Click for a bigger image. Sorry about the aliasing, my capture utility is free:D)



The only TCC lockup in that span is where the cursor line is. If you look at the TCCDC plot (that's the TCC PWM solenoid valve duty cycle parameter.) You'l notice that it's high whenever the VSS is above a certain threshold, *except* in the neighborhood of the cursor where apply has been commanded. Also notice that it doesn't go high again quite like the other case where it's the result of a speed threshold crossing, there's a little curved shoulder as the DC is < 100% during application. It's maybe a bad spot to pick in the data as it's not in a locked state long, dropping to mode 3 as I start slowing down for a stop. Make sense?

You're on the right track looking for an indicator of when the PCM has commanded lockup. I'm going to go see if AutoTap 2.x has the required parameter.



[Modified by ToplessTexan, 8:36 PM 6/4/2003]

 

OK. I understand now. I don't think Autotap has a parameter to show if the TCC is engaged except for the TCC slip speed which should theoretically approach 0 when the TCC is locked up. The only other thing I see is TCC apply time.

 

Which version are you using?

 

Right now I'm just using ne of the first ones (1.11). I'm still having trouble getting the newer version to work. But even on the newer version, I didn't see anything that would give an indication for tcc lockup unless again this TCC apply time is an indicator.

I just now got back from logging some info. The TCC locked up as it should through the entire drive (about 10 miles). The P1870 code cam along twice..both times I were able to clear them and the TCC locked up. I just don't get why when the car has sat overnight and I get in it the next morning, after locking up a couple of times and then disengages, it stays disengaged unitl I park it for several hours. :rolleyes:


[Modified by MikeyD, 9:33 PM 6/4/2003]

 

I had a similar problem at highway speeds, no modifications. It turned out that my brake pedal was out of adjustment and everytime I hit a small gyration in the road, the pedal would move or stay down and kick loose the converter. Once the pedal was adjusted, the converter stayed engaged. Try holding the pedal up with the toe of your foot and see if it continues to kick in and out.

 

Thanks for bringing that up! I had though about that a while back but fluffed it off. Now that you mentioned it and the more I think about it, I'm going to check that out. I know my cruise control switch is out of adjustment because when I hit a bump, it disengages. All I have to do is do like you said and hold the brake pedal up with my foot and I can reset it. There are two switches under the brake pedal. i wonder if the TCC wire is on the same switch as the cruise. This won't fix my P1870 code problem but it could very well be what is causing my other problem with regards to TCC not engaging at all some times and also it disengaging every once in a while. :cheers:

 

Well, I adjusted the switch behind the brake pedal, drove the car all day long and haven't had one single issue with the TCC! The TCC engaged when it was suppose to and the car never set the P1870 code!! Is it possible that switch is what caused all of my problems or is it just coincidence?? This is the first since getting the car back that I've managed to drive it as much as I did without TCC problems. I don't know. Time will tell. I plan on maybe taking a 40 mile round trip on the highway tomorrow. The switch may have had something to do with the TCC not wanting to engage at times but I don't see how it would have affected the P1870 code :confused:

As long as she's doin good, I'm not asking too many questions. :smash: on wood! :cheers: