I'm on my third cam, and intend to install my 4th, but I'm not certain how to deal with this install. My 2000 FRC started stock, then was converted to a T1 race car with LS6 top end, and so had the 2001 then the 2002 ZO6 cams installed by my racer-friendly dealer. Presumably they just matched the pins on the cams, rather than degreeing them, since they were GM parts. The car now has other engine mods and is no longer T1 legal, so I just drive the car at track events.

I now intend to have a bigger cam installed which I purchased from a big name tuner and racer (and Forum vendor), but the tuner refuses to provide a cam card or any install guidelines in order to protect his "intellectual property" regarding the cam's specs. I am asked to accept on faith that the cam will match up with my engine without having to dial it in.

My question for experienced engine builders is - how comfortable would you be with such an arrangement? Would you want your installer to be able to degree the cam, or would you be content to install it as is without any further info such as intake center, etc? I would appreciate any informed advice since I have not yet decided whether to install the cam. Thanks

 

The vendor should at least tell you if there is a likely problem with stock pistons and heads.

You can get the cam analysed and you will know what he will not tell you.

You can pull the heads and verify clearance (clay)

 

Put the cam on a Cam Dr. at Thunder Racing and see for yourself. If you bought the cam, then you have the right to know the specs and whether or not it will cause everything to collide when you fire it up.

As was mentioned earlier, once you get it lined up and all tacked together, then clay everything and see if it will run w/o collisions. What heads are you running and how much are they milled? That, the base circle of the cam, and the intake duration and lift will have a lot to do with whether or not you will run into problems.

I feel for you man, I've been down this road with a supporting tuner (maybe even the same one you are dealing with - I don't know), and it was nothing but heartaches and misery dealing with him on something as simple as a cam. Do yourself a favor and find out for yourself and leave nothing to guesswork.

Needless to say, I went with someone I could trust (Thunder Racing) as they didn't try to hide anything from me on the specs of the equipment I bought from them.


[Modified by AllCammedUp, 10:36 PM 6/15/2003]

 

Thanks, See5 & Cammed - I may have explained this badly. The tuner gave me the basic specs (lift, duration, LSA) so I am fairly certain this is a grind I can use, and that I can use the cam without piston clearance problems. I have ported LS6 heads done by Mallett with dual valve springs & titanium retainers, hardened pushrods, etc. and the heads have only a cleanup cut.

This is a split timing cam with lift (a little) less than .600 so after talking with Chuck Mallett I am fairly certain there is not a valve/piston clearance problem. But I have no card describing the orientation of the cam to the crank. I have been told just to align the pins. (I should make it clear that I did not get the cam from Mallett - he was just being helpful, as usual).

The issue is - degreeing the cam. In your opinion, do I need to worry about this, or just trust in the predrilled holes (and pins) to time it exactly right? I had intended to use an aftermarket double roller timing chain and sprocket, as well, which could add some variables to the timing. Maybe I am old fashioned, but the way we used to install cams was to align TDC on #1 cylinder with a known reference point on the cam, using a degree wheel. But this now seems to be proprietary information. Am I worrying too much about timing the cam correctly? Thanks

 

IMO, a vendor can provide basic info such as lift, duration, lsa and intake centerline and still preserve the true secrets of the cam such as IO/IC, EO/EC, ramp rates, reverse flank characteristics, base circle, etc. The vendor needs to allow you to degree your cam because not every cam is perfect and you may want to install it advanced or retarded and need to know where your starting point is. they cannot expect you to go on their word alone. If they have been doing this a long time, they should know better. I think we all know who you're talking about, and i am suprised that he would withold the one piece of data on the cam to allow you to degree. I would not buy a cam from him if he wouldnt allow me to degree it when i install. Too many other cam choices out there. No bashing intended, just my .02 worth as a tuner and installer myself. The person/place you bought this cam from is great people; this is why it surprises me they wont give you the intake centerline of the cam. I dont know why they worry about preserving the IP on the cam anyway...if someone REALLY wants to know everything about the cam, they can profile it quite easily. No one is going to go to the trouble to do this since it would require buying the cam from them to begin with, then the time to profile it, and for what reason?? none of us will do that as 'end users' since we dont need multiple copies of the same cam. most of their business comes from end-users, not people interested in stealing their secret and trying to go into business themselves based on a cam profile. They will argue this for sure, but, oh well. If you desire to profile the cam but they wont give you the intake centerline #, send the cam back. I think they'll give your $$ back no problem, then buy someone elses cam.


[Modified by rwj383, 8:44 PM 6/15/2003]

 

It is nice to be refered to as a "big name tuner".

For the record, this is the second thread that you have asked the same question, and this will be the second time I have given the answer.

In my first response to your questions, I suggested that you give me a call, and I offered to refund your money,or extend a helping hand to your installer if you were not comfortable. I have not received a phone call yet, but I am answering the same questions again, in this public forum.


First, I will point out that I have already told rbeckham all of the same specs that General Motors tells you when you buy the Grand Am/World Challenge cam. We have sold nearly 100 of these cams to date. Beckham has our early G5 cam that was developed nearly 2 years ago. It is a docile but Powerful cam.
Some have degreed the cam in, and some have not. There is no mystery here. You were already given the duration 224/230, lift is 581/572, and the lobe split of 112 degrees. These specs were already given to you.

There have been no valve to piston problems with heads that have not been overly milled. If you have a Z06, and have just done a head clean up, You will not have any problems.

Again, I want to reiterate that all of this info has been previously relayed to the customer.

As for degreeing the cam in, I will make the same recomendations that GM gives when they sell you a World Challenge cam, and that is this; "If you want to move the torque curve down a little, then advance the cam a couple of degrees. If you want to move the torque curve up a little, then retard the cam a couple of degrees". If you are intent on installing the cam with milled heads, any worthy engine builder would at least check valve drop.

Or you can install the cam "dot to dot" and go and have fun. I have checked more than 10 of these cams for accuracy, and none have been out over 1/4 degree.

GM does not tell you where to put their cams, other than dot to dot. We try to emulate GM, and provide our customer with an acurate, easy to install camshaft, that does not require any special tools.
This does not preclude you or any of our customers from custom installations. Any installer worth their salt, will check V to P clearance if the heads are milled or anytime a cam is dialed with a degree wheel.

My offer still stands for the refund and technical help for your installer.
And if you want more performace from your car, I will exchange the cam you have, for one of our G5X-2 cams.

My guess is that you will be delighted with your results, regardless.

Lou Gigliotti LG Motorsports 972-272-7753

 

Dude, its a 224/230, you're gonna be fine dot to dot just like everybody else. Maybe 1% of LS1's EVER have a cam degreed in so for the most part everybody just puts in it dot to dot and trusts the cam grinder to grind the cam proper.

Now, sometimes cams are ground wrong, and if thats the case you'll hate it if you didn't check the cam first, but that is a pretty rare case. Put it in, spin the motor over by hand to make sure it isn't grossly off, then fire it up!

Jon
http://www.ls1howto.com

 

Lou - It would appear I have offended you in ways I do not understand, which was certainly not my intention.

I'm just a Corvette driver, not an engineer or a parts vendor, and certainly not a "cam pirate," as if I wanted to copy your cam or divulge its secrets. I just want to use it, and have it installed correctly. This is not an inexpensive prospect for me. I considered my question about install issues to be an honest one, and I still do. And not just for your cams, but for all the others.

We did speak a few weeks ago, after I had ordered your G5 cam (but before I had received it) and you told me essentially the same thing you say in your post (and I said in mine). I.e., "it's a good cam, but it's a secret, can't tell you anything about it except that it is great stuff, but two years old so
maybe you should try the new one (as if newer and more radical is better)."

I just wanted something which would work for my purpose, which would be a relatively mild, reliable track cam for an improved LS6 engine which will work on the track without my having to rebuild my heads once or twice a season. As we discussed, I am not a drag racer, and neither are you. So you understand what I need. You confirmed my initial impression that the G5 is probably a pretty good choice for this purpose.

The only actual issue is "install." Since rebulding the engine in my Chevy Monza V8 with camelback heads in 1976 and installing the GM "350" cam at that time, I have never actually installed a camshaft myself. I figure there are people more competent and experienced than I am with building an LS6
engine. But they need the data to know how to do it correctly.

I have always understood that it is necessary to "degree," or index the cam in order to insure that it is timed correctly with the crank, with whatever timing chain/sprocket one is using. I gather you are saying that this is an outmoded notion, and that it is not necessary to do this. I am willing to believe this, but do not have all the necessary information in order to draw this conclusion. As I said above, perhaps I am terminally old-fashioned and deluded in this regard. Respectfully, Robert Beckham

 

Robert,

With all due respect, the only gripe I have is that you are trying to get me to help you in front of 50,000 other members of the forum.

And with all due respect, I would rather not discuss any specifics other than I already have in a public forum. The phrase "Just between you and me", doesn't apply to the Internet. It is for that reason that I hesitate.

The bottom line is that you are not building a finely tuned high strung race engine with close tolerances. You are adding a medium size cam to a street engine. There is not much to be gained by applying rocket science to paper airplanes.
Just do the basic "Valve drop" check, and install it.

I look forward to hearing from you on the phone, rather than on line, and we can figure out what is best for you.

Thanks,

Lou G