early rods vs. late rods
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
From: Coconut Creek FL
early rods vs. late rods
I'm told that there are some differences between early rods and late rods...I've got an early car (1999 FRC)... are my rods really different, or is only the bolts? If it's only the bolts,I can swap out for ARP bolts (easy); otherwise it's a whole rebuild with better rods to bring me up to later standards. I'm looking to cam & head my car , but I'm concerned about reving it too high with these early rods. What's the story with the rods in early cars?
Rob
Rob
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 6
From: Sahuarita AZ
I have never seen any other rods but I have a early 99 FRC and the rods in mine were 2 piece. I replaced them when I did my CAM with hardened rods from MTI. If you are doing a cam, you will need new springs and should probably replace the push rods too. As far as I know, the head bolts are all the same on 97-04's. I would recommend you purchase them as a kit (GM Part #12498545 -- my dealer showed another part number for the head bolt kit and this part for any gm small block... i ordered the part number listed then later had to buy another set of the bolts individually, they are the exact same bolts and cheaper than the part number the dealer showed for the vette) from your local dealer. GMPartsDirect had them but after shipping they were almost $20 a set more expensive than my local dealer. You can purchase the bolts individually from your dealer but they will come out to almost $60 per side when the kit is like $21.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 6
From: Sahuarita AZ
I compiled this excel file when ordering parts for my cam swap and thought it might help you.
Required parts
Required parts
Racer
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 442
Likes: 2
From: San Clemente CA
Early Rods
Hi,
The story I heard about the early rods is that some of the early LS1’s that Lingenfelter builds for ASA racing broke rod bolts. Chevy upgraded the bolts for the 2001model year in response and this solved the problem. There are aftermarket bolts available from Katech & ARP that are even stronger than the late Chevy parts. I used Katech in my ’99 but would go with the best ARP next time.
Good luck,
Steve
The story I heard about the early rods is that some of the early LS1’s that Lingenfelter builds for ASA racing broke rod bolts. Chevy upgraded the bolts for the 2001model year in response and this solved the problem. There are aftermarket bolts available from Katech & ARP that are even stronger than the late Chevy parts. I used Katech in my ’99 but would go with the best ARP next time.
Good luck,
Steve
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,558
Likes: 2
From: Cape Coral FL
Originally Posted by SNW Vette
Hi,
The story I heard about the early rods is that some of the early LS1’s that Lingenfelter builds for ASA racing broke rod bolts. Chevy upgraded the bolts for the 2001model year in response and this solved the problem. There are aftermarket bolts available from Katech & ARP that are even stronger than the late Chevy parts. I used Katech in my ’99 but would go with the best ARP next time.
Good luck,
Steve
The story I heard about the early rods is that some of the early LS1’s that Lingenfelter builds for ASA racing broke rod bolts. Chevy upgraded the bolts for the 2001model year in response and this solved the problem. There are aftermarket bolts available from Katech & ARP that are even stronger than the late Chevy parts. I used Katech in my ’99 but would go with the best ARP next time.
Good luck,
Steve
I have a 99 FRC and I am doing what you are planning to do. I am changing the rod bolts, doing the LS6 pcv conversion with an AMW catch can, and doing a h/c swap. changing the rod bolts is not trivial. You have to either remove the motor and do it on a stand or leave the motor in the car and support the motor from above. THe reason for supporting the motor from above is because the motor is mounted to the crossmember and the crossmember must be removed to get the pan out. Also the pan has rivets locating it to the block. They must be drilled out to remove the pan. All this must occur with the motor hanging in the air supported from above. 
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 6
From: Sahuarita AZ
Originally Posted by SNW Vette
Hi,
The story I heard about the early rods is that some of the early LS1’s that Lingenfelter builds for ASA racing broke rod bolts. Chevy upgraded the bolts for the 2001model year in response and this solved the problem. There are aftermarket bolts available from Katech & ARP that are even stronger than the late Chevy parts. I used Katech in my ’99 but would go with the best ARP next time.
Good luck,
Steve
The story I heard about the early rods is that some of the early LS1’s that Lingenfelter builds for ASA racing broke rod bolts. Chevy upgraded the bolts for the 2001model year in response and this solved the problem. There are aftermarket bolts available from Katech & ARP that are even stronger than the late Chevy parts. I used Katech in my ’99 but would go with the best ARP next time.
Good luck,
Steve
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Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,558
Likes: 2
From: Cape Coral FL
Originally Posted by Jackal
I have never seen rivets in the oil pan. Are you sure?
I'll keep my trusty Ryobi ready just in case.
Pro
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
From: Castle Rock Co
ARP tech says you need to hone the big end after installing their LS1 bolts. I was going to upgrade the bolts until I found this out.
If you are going to replace the bolts with ARPs the engine is coming out. If the engine comes out you might as well upgrade the rods and pistons to forged units. It costs $300-$400 for labor and ARP bolts for a set of stock rods, I've seen eagles for $600.
I bought a block, and am going to build a new shortblock when I get done with my 69 Camaro.
If you are going to replace the bolts with ARPs the engine is coming out. If the engine comes out you might as well upgrade the rods and pistons to forged units. It costs $300-$400 for labor and ARP bolts for a set of stock rods, I've seen eagles for $600.
I bought a block, and am going to build a new shortblock when I get done with my 69 Camaro.
Racer
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 290
Likes: 8
From: 60 miles from BGKY
Originally Posted by SNW Vette
Hi,
The story I heard about the early rods is that some of the early LS1’s that Lingenfelter builds for ASA racing broke rod bolts. Chevy upgraded the bolts for the 2001model year in response and this solved the problem. There are aftermarket bolts available from Katech & ARP that are even stronger than the late Chevy parts. I used Katech in my ’99 but would go with the best ARP next time.
Good luck,
Steve
The story I heard about the early rods is that some of the early LS1’s that Lingenfelter builds for ASA racing broke rod bolts. Chevy upgraded the bolts for the 2001model year in response and this solved the problem. There are aftermarket bolts available from Katech & ARP that are even stronger than the late Chevy parts. I used Katech in my ’99 but would go with the best ARP next time.
Good luck,
Steve
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
From: Coconut Creek FL
Some guys on ls1tech.com have swapped out rod bolts in the car (without resizing the big ends). And, it looks like a much easier job on a C5 than an F-body (which requires dropping the k-member). I'm kind of on the fence now, though. The labor to swap 'em out in the car does not scare me...it actually looks pretty easy. I'm mostly concerned now about whether you really need to resize them. Anybody here actually done this? (I realize this method isn't the "right" way, but going through the whole motor just isn't in the budget right now.)
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,558
Likes: 2
From: Cape Coral FL
Originally Posted by Heretic
ARP tech says you need to hone the big end after installing their LS1 bolts. I was going to upgrade the bolts until I found this out.
If you are going to replace the bolts with ARPs the engine is coming out. If the engine comes out you might as well upgrade the rods and pistons to forged units. It costs $300-$400 for labor and ARP bolts for a set of stock rods, I've seen eagles for $600.
I bought a block, and am going to build a new shortblock when I get done with my 69 Camaro.
If you are going to replace the bolts with ARPs the engine is coming out. If the engine comes out you might as well upgrade the rods and pistons to forged units. It costs $300-$400 for labor and ARP bolts for a set of stock rods, I've seen eagles for $600.
I bought a block, and am going to build a new shortblock when I get done with my 69 Camaro.
The big issue of changing the rod bolts with the engine in the car is how to support the engine from above. The crossmember has to be removed to gain access to the oil pan bolts for removal and the service manual states there are several rivets used to locate the oil pan that have to be drilled out. Kent-Moore makes a fixture that mounts to the shock struts and supports the engine so the crossmember can be removed and from there the oil pan can be removed. The total cost for this fixture is around $900 so it's out of the question for the one time user. I am investigating building my own support in order to do this. It might also be easier to just take the motor out and do it on a stand since I doubt it's an item that can be rented.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 76
From: Bedford Va.
you should always resize the large end/crank end of the connecting rod when changing bolt. if your worried able the stock bottom end it makes no sense to change bolts and not resize. A potential hand grenade!
now that the pan is out, the crank is out, the pistons are out with rods and you have no good way to support the motor0- lets think about this.
after all this you will prabably say to yourself -it would have been easier to have removed to engine.
Now you can do all mods/assembly on a stand, clean and right.
short cuts will bit you in the end
now that the pan is out, the crank is out, the pistons are out with rods and you have no good way to support the motor0- lets think about this.
after all this you will prabably say to yourself -it would have been easier to have removed to engine.
Now you can do all mods/assembly on a stand, clean and right.
short cuts will bit you in the end
Pro
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
From: Castle Rock Co
Originally Posted by ArKay99
I talked to ARP and they told me the same thing. However, the LS1 rods are cracked and can't be resized unless you hone them assembled. I talked to Katech, the other company that makes rod bolts. They told me you don't need to do any rod resizing with their bolts. You change them one at a time so the bearings don't shift. There was a member on this forum that did this using Katech bolts on his 2000 over the winter and was successful. Katech provides instructions with the bolt kit. I'm planning on doing this as soon as the bolts arrive.
The big issue of changing the rod bolts with the engine in the car is how to support the engine from above. The crossmember has to be removed to gain access to the oil pan bolts for removal and the service manual states there are several rivets used to locate the oil pan that have to be drilled out. Kent-Moore makes a fixture that mounts to the shock struts and supports the engine so the crossmember can be removed and from there the oil pan can be removed. The total cost for this fixture is around $900 so it's out of the question for the one time user. I am investigating building my own support in order to do this. It might also be easier to just take the motor out and do it on a stand since I doubt it's an item that can be rented.
The big issue of changing the rod bolts with the engine in the car is how to support the engine from above. The crossmember has to be removed to gain access to the oil pan bolts for removal and the service manual states there are several rivets used to locate the oil pan that have to be drilled out. Kent-Moore makes a fixture that mounts to the shock struts and supports the engine so the crossmember can be removed and from there the oil pan can be removed. The total cost for this fixture is around $900 so it's out of the question for the one time user. I am investigating building my own support in order to do this. It might also be easier to just take the motor out and do it on a stand since I doubt it's an item that can be rented.
I have a set of rods that I was going to magnaflux and resize. Maybe I'll just buy the ARP bolts, and measure before and after to answer definativley.
I can't see how increasing the clamping load would distort the bore. The clamping force is concentrated on the "ears" of the big end, so unless you are really clamping down, there should be no measureable distortion. Removing the bolts from a standard rod, with pressed in bolts is a fairly traumatic process, so the need to resize there is obvious.
Interesting discussion. Too bad the tuners who are so ready to pimp their products don't jump in on these.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 76
From: Bedford Va.
pressing in different bolts that could move the cap even a c-hair
is enough to cause a mismatch. how the head of that bolt loads the
rod can add a different pressure point. why take the time to do all this work and then risk a problem at high RPM and make a real big mess of thinks.
is enough to cause a mismatch. how the head of that bolt loads the
rod can add a different pressure point. why take the time to do all this work and then risk a problem at high RPM and make a real big mess of thinks.
Pro
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
From: Castle Rock Co
Originally Posted by Mr. Jones
pressing in different bolts that could move the cap even a c-hair
is enough to cause a mismatch. how the head of that bolt loads the
rod can add a different pressure point. why take the time to do all this work and then risk a problem at high RPM and make a real big mess of thinks.
is enough to cause a mismatch. how the head of that bolt loads the
rod can add a different pressure point. why take the time to do all this work and then risk a problem at high RPM and make a real big mess of thinks.
The LS1 rods are a cap screw type bolt, there is no pressing, hence my pondering of why arp says to resize.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
From: Coconut Creek FL
I'm going to give it a try. I'll be doing heads & cam at the same time, so I can just attach a chain to the block and use an I-beam hoist to hold it up while I swap out the bolts from underneath. (There's a good thread on ls1tech.com covering the procedure...I don't know if the moderators allow linking to other boards, so I'll let you go look it up yourselves if you're interested.) Honestly, this looks like a very easy job...I can't see it adding more than an extra hour or two to the H/C swap. I guess I'm more afraid of spinning too much rpm with stock rod bolts than tackling this little project. Time to start ordering up some parts!