I'm in the same boat as you are. The h/c sounds better to me. The s/c has more hp. but most of them do not run as fast of times in the 1/4 mile as the h/c cars with less hp.
I'm getting the Motor City Hood in 2 weeks and then over winter I will decide which to do.

 

Choice is a good thing, and either decision is a good one. I chose to go the H/C route...I like the sound and lope. But, to be honest, my car drives extremely well even though I got one of the bigger cams (LG-G5X3). I attribute this to my installer/tuner...ECS. Funny thing is, they are specialists in S/C applications, but did not pressure me in my decision, but rather worked to make me extremely happy with my choice.

So, I guess my suggestion is once you decide which route you want to take, make sure you do your homework with your tuner/installer decision. At the end of the day, this turns out to be the most important aspect of any modification strategy you pursue.

 

Depends on what you want. My 2x package works well for me. With the ported Throttle body and Manifold we're over 440 hp at the rear wheels with the 3.42s through cats. It has a little lope and is very reliable. Drove the car to Canada through Ohio and back with no problems what so ever. Also I've been Drag Racing the car as of late. No problems there either. It would work well as a daily driver. However.......you are in the "Republik of Kaliforina" with draconian emission laws. The 2x will pass but you have to tune it to pass. That may not work for you. You might want to talk to some of the tuners out there and see just how far you can go with H/C.

 

Sorry Howie, I forgot how sensitive you are about all the mods you did to get that 4x4 look!

For those who know H/C, I'm at 395/381 RW with LTs, AFR Heads and a stealth cam: 220/224 0.581/0.581 LSA 115 in an A4 w/ a stock TC. This set up idles smooth as silk, no lope but plenty of power for an A4. Maximum power was not the goal. Good power with maximum drivability is where it's at for me and probably for Howie too, since he does almost everything I do, sooner or later

 

here is a 460rwhp procharged FRC racing a heads/cam SS camaro. the camaro stays right beside the vette. the camaro dyno'd 422rwhp with a automatic. he now has a 6 speed which he's using against the vette. the camaro has less RWHP and weighs 3550 WITHOUT the driver. the vette does have the camer man though. but once again a heavier, less horspower'd heads/cam car giving a supercharged vette a run for its money. maybe this will help with your decision.

you might have to do " right click and save as "
http://driftnc.com/BlownFRCvs00SS4780.wmv
Reply With Quote

 

Throw a 150 wet shot onto that H&C car and look into the rearview mirror.

 

Thanks guys for all the feed back.

Seems like this is not going to be an easy discission. Does seem like most of you are happy with which ever setup you have.

30th TA.....maybe I should have just kept my SS....

 

Many people are posting examples like this one that I quoted saying that head/cam cars are faster in the 1/4 mile even though they have less horsepower (torque?). Can somebody explain why? The second question I have is if a h/c car has a lopey idle, do you hear this when you're cruising at 80 in sixth gear on the freeway? That might be kinda annoying if you're going long distances...

 

i dont know why but i always see and hear how the horsepower made from H/C cars is more impressive than a supercharged car. meaning like ..400rwhp from a h/c car will run with a 450 supercharged car. just like in the video.

i have a 230/230 cam on a 110LSA in my car. no it is not lopey at 80mph or at any other speed. its only lopey at idle. if your going to drive the car far , id rather be in the supercharged car, but how often you going to be driving for hours on end?

by the way my car got 22mpg on the highway and thats running a RICH 11:8.1 A/F ratio. i know it would get 25mpg when tuned right. PLUS i have 4:10 gears in the rear. my car is a 6 speed.

 

I think you may want to check again...you may be making 11.8 at WOT, but at cruise the computer will try to adjust it using the fuel tables to get as close to 14.684 as possible. This is probably setting you into a negative LTFT but it is probably reaching close to stoich when on the highway. Not trying to tell you your car, but if you were running 11.8 air/fuel at cruise, you would look like an accellerating deisel truck blowing black smoke out the back all the time.

A lot more factors go into it than peak hp/torque numbers. What RPM they took off at (who hit their power band first), the actual weight (one had a passenger), the air quality (superchargers are more sensitive to air temps), gearing, transmissions, etc. FWIW, and not that I do this often, but I raced a 383 full out effort (heads, cams, 383, gears, tubbed, etc) on the highway one night and we were dead even from 70 to about 145. He had probably $25K invested to my $8k and I had probably 50-60 horses on him, but he has a more linear torque curve which evened the field a little. The temps were in the 75 degree range. If they had been in the 55 degree range I do not think he would have done as well to keep even.

If you look strictly at 1/4 mile track times I think you will find your answer in the 60' times. If both racers have similar 60' times, the one with more horsepower will win. I think you see more h/c cars going full bore on tire selection with slicks and skinnies than you do with SC setups. It is not that a SC car can not 60', it is just that most do not set their cars up for it. Street tire to street tire, it is no contest.

 

when i had it tuned at rapid, mikey set the a/f at 13.0 which is perfect. then i installed dual 3" with a x pipe. i went to get it redyno'd and the a/f was at 11.8:1 and RWHP went from 429 down to 416. this is how ive been driving it all spring, summer and fall. i mean...you can tell its rich and when i jump on it you can see some smoke come out of the tail pipes but its not pure black smoke puring out like a deisel truck. by the way i ran a 11.96@119.77 with a 1.80 60' at 3630lbs so it still runs pretty good for not being 100% tuned.

 

Thanks for the explanations 30th T/A and SPD DMN. I gather that SCs are not the best in hot weather... like in Southern Cali? From what I've read, it seems that both have some maintenance issues--belts for SCs and springs for H/C...

A lot more factors go into it than peak hp/torque numbers. What RPM they took off at (who hit their power band first), the actual weight (one had a passenger), the air quality (superchargers are more sensitive to air temps), gearing, transmissions, etc. FWIW, and not that I do this often, but I raced a 383 full out effort (heads, cams, 383, gears, tubbed, etc) on the highway one night and we were dead even from 70 to about 145. He had probably $25K invested to my $8k and I had probably 50-60 horses on him, but he has a more linear torque curve which evened the field a little. The temps were in the 75 degree range. If they had been in the 55 degree range I do not think he would have done as well to keep even.

If you look strictly at 1/4 mile track times I think you will find your answer in the 60' times. If both racers have similar 60' times, the one with more horsepower will win. I think you see more h/c cars going full bore on tire selection with slicks and skinnies than you do with SC setups. It is not that a SC car can not 60', it is just that most do not set their cars up for it. Street tire to street tire, it is no contest.[/QUOTE]

 

It is not that they are not good in hot weather, I am just saying a loose a little horsepower in hot weather because the Intake Air Temperatures retard the heck out of my setup (don't know about others) and I could be running close to 10 degrees of timing retard just due to the heat. Now, that is Texas heat, which may have a different impact on the power than Southern Californina heat.

All cars will be impacted by bad (hot or humid) or good (cold and low humidity) weather. The Supercharged cars will just show a larger variation in power on the bad days than a NA car. Now, introduce alchohol injection and you eliminate some (or all) of that variance.

Either choice can be made to have decent power on tap while providing a platform for a great daily driver.

Chris

 

When it comes down to a decision-horsepower costs money and requires maintenance. With a heads and cam car, spring changes are necessary, with boosted applications the bottom end gets stressed. Naturally aspirated with the right combination of intake, heads, camshaft, and headers can be matched to your driving goals. The cam that is being used in 30T/A's ride is a good example. Either way, your car will be more fun but at a cost. Good luck,

Glen

 

30th TA, you realize when a car is switched from A4 to M6, it will automatically pick up about 5% more horsepower to the wheels? If the car dynoed at 42x before, those two cars should now be nearly identical RWHP. The math works like this:

Vette: 460/.85 = 541
*Camaro A4: 422/.8= 527hp
*when recalculated for the M6, the rwhp will increase by approx. 5%.

You are essentially looking at a 15hp difference between the two cars.
In fact, the video you listed actually proves the opposite of what you stated. Two cars with equal HP, regardless of power adder, will run side by side (given equal drivers).

To pretend a peak HP rating is the key to running faster is simply foolish. The car which has the best combination: gears/converter/power adder will run better.

Now, back to the original question, which to purchase, it seems to me there are a few ways to look at this:

1. Money: The cost is about the same when you take into account the entire cost, not simply the cost to add the power adder. For instance, how much will it cost to remove the power adder when you go to sell the car? A SC can be removed very easily and the car can be sold as stock. A cam, you must get into the engine to make it happen. Typically, getting into the engine will decrease the value of the car (unless you happen to find the right buyer). Also, when you take parts off the car, are they worth anything? A SC can be re-sold for a substantial amount of money. . .heads and cam, not so much.

2. Attention: I love the lope at idle, for that reason, I have now added a cam to my SC setup. However, if you really want the muscle car sound, you are going to sacrifice driveability. If you are considering the cam you have discussed, forget about it, there is no comparison. Go with the blower. You won't notice the cam you are considering, as such, people will definitely notice the blower more (both when idling by and opening the hood). If you want a big lope, go with the cam because it will never be ideal for a blower setup.

3. Performance: If you choose to go with the A&A setup and let someone like Andy tune it, you will not find a mild head/cam setup which will perform equally. I am also certain any of the tuners can put together a nice cam setup which will compete with a basic blower only setup. As far as ability to upgrade, again, no comparison. . .choose blower.

 

[QUOTE=hogurt
3. Performance: If you choose to go with the A&A setup and let someone like Andy tune it, you will not find a mild head/cam setup which will perform equally. I am also certain any of the tuners can put together a nice cam setup which will compete with a basic blower only setup. As far as ability to upgrade, again, no comparison. . .choose blower.
[/QUOTE]



Bang for the buck on pump gas/stock shortblock: heads and cam NA or nitrous or blower are all up for grabs.

But bang for the buck while retaining stock to mild/civilized manners: F.I. rocks. All that money spent on F.I. is not just for power/torque, it's to keep drivability.

Just to give an idea, a truly mild (meaning stock-like) NA setup making 510 flywheel hp would need 427cid. In fact, one top-notch tuner offers a 510 flywheel hp 427 with stock-like manners; of course there are 427s with nearly 600 to the wheels on a manual transmission but a lot more rowdy.

 

****.....the more I read the more I don't know what to do. I know I will NOT do both. Its gota be one or the other.

Is one better with my A4 stock converter?

Is one louder with my headers?

Which one is least likely to result in engine damage.

Which one is easier to SMOG.

I think answers to these questions will help me.

Please give me more imput....THANKS!!!

 

Your new questions mean you should almost certainly go with the SC.
1. With a stock converter, the head/cam setup is NOT a good choice because the cam will move the powerband up. As a result, you will need a looser converter to put you in the powerband quicker.

2. Is one louder with headers? This actually brings up two points. With the SC, you won't even need headers! When you do add them, the headers will make the head/cam car louder. Actually, the head/cam car will be louder to begin with. . .because even a smaller cam (I have the 224/224), you will have to raise RPM's at idle. . .the headers will just make it appear louder. Although if you go with the SC, you won't need headers and you won't gain much from adding them. If you add the SC and NO headers, you will get around 450rwhp through the A4!

3. If you go with a mild setup, neither setup is likely to cause engine damage. The key here = go to a reputable tuner!

4. Which is easier to smog - Again, there is no comparison, the SC does nothing to change the SMOG setup. In fact, when you are sitting at idle, the SC will be running like a stock car. In all likelihood, the H/C setup will also pass smog, however, you could select a cam which would prevent it from passing. . .with the SC, passing smog is NEVER a problem.

I am sure someone will hop on here and say, add a 150 shot, it won't have any problems either.
While they are right, I would assume from the title you are not going to consider nitrous?

Oh, one more factor which will always make going with the SC a better choice.

When you add a SC, you can always choose to change the setup and add a head/cam later. Your supercharger choice does NOT need to take into account adding a H/C later.

When you choose H/C, you cannot always add a SC later. In other words, your H/C choice DOES need to take into account adding forced induction. Why?

If you are running forced induction, you will choose a different head/cam setup than you would choose if you were running naturally aspirated (because you would want to lower the compression ratio). Based on this fact, you would always be better off choosing forced induction first and adding the head/cam setup later. The only time this is NOT true, do you want a big lopey idle. If so, you have to go with the head cam setup because you will never want to run FI. . .since a big cam will NEVER be ideal for a FI setup.

I hope this helps. People struggle with this decision all the time. Obviously, I did the same thing. Some people choose head/cam setup and other choose FI. If you were to right out the pro's and con's of each, the SC will win hands down. However, if there is something (such as the big lope at idle) which you really want, then writing all the Pro's and Con's isn't necessarily the best approach.

Good luck. I hope to see you in the FI section soon.

 

I made my decision based on one thing......Intimidation When you roll up with a cam package people notice. If you want the stealth role then go with the SC.

But you drive a Vette so you wanted to be noticed right? So put the sound to the car, go cam you wont regret it.

I did the same thing your doing right now. I drove in a SC car and a Cammed car. Both were awesome examples of what you could do with a cam app. or SC app.

In the end I went the rowdier route and put the big stick in.

 

I'M GOING TO GO WITH H/C. I WANT TO PULL UP NEXT TO A VIPER AND MESS WITH EM. I ACTUALLY SEEN A VIPER ONE DAY THAT WAS ALL DECKED OUT IT LOOKED LIKE A RACE CAR AND IT SOUNDED MEAN. IT SOUNDED LIKE IT HAD A BAD A_S CAM IN IT. I WAS KINDA SUPRISED IT WAS ON THE ROAD. I'M NOT SAYING I COULD BEAT THAT VIPER. I BET IT WAS SICK AND I'VE HAVN'T SEEN IT SINCE. BUT I KNOW THAT CAR HAD TO OF HAD A H/C. I JUST LOVE THE SOUND OF THE N/A CARS. WHEN YOU HEAR THEM IT LETS YOU KNOW WHATS UP. ITS KINDA LIKE THAT CAR DOSN'T WANT TO BE F_CKED WITH.