Heads/Cam or SuperCharge
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 35
From: Fairview Hts. IL
Originally Posted by MikeJamesC5
I'M GOING TO GO WITH H/C. I WANT TO PULL UP NEXT TO A VIPER AND MESS WITH EM. I ACTUALLY SEEN A VIPER ONE DAY THAT WAS ALL DECKED OUT IT LOOKED LIKE A RACE CAR AND IT SOUNDED MEAN. IT SOUNDED LIKE IT HAD A BAD A_S CAM IN IT. I WAS KINDA SUPRISED IT WAS ON THE ROAD. I'M NOT SAYING I COULD BEAT THAT VIPER. I BET IT WAS SICK AND I'VE HAVN'T SEEN IT SINCE. BUT I KNOW THAT CAR HAD TO OF HAD A H/C. I JUST LOVE THE SOUND OF THE N/A CARS. WHEN YOU HEAR THEM IT LETS YOU KNOW WHATS UP. ITS KINDA LIKE THAT CAR DOSN'T WANT TO BE F_CKED WITH. 
Just be ready, if you run into a "sick sounding VIper", be prepared to have your A$$ handed to you, unless you are running either juice, or a blower (where you can run substantially more power).
I had the opportunity to run a couple Vipers here in St. Louis, it wasn't close. At the same time, I watched one of the same Vipers smoke a nitrous/cammed Vette at the track. Apparently Vette had nitrous problems (didn't kick in). At any rate. . .either choice is a good one. It all depends on what you are looking to accomplish.
Of course, now I am a cammed/SC Vette. . .can't wait to play with those Viper boys!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,120
Likes: 0
From: Ypsilanti MI
Originally Posted by hogurt
Mike,
Just be ready, if you run into a "sick sounding VIper", be prepared to have your A$$ handed to you, unless you are running either juice, or a blower (where you can run substantially more power).
I had the opportunity to run a couple Vipers here in St. Louis, it wasn't close. At the same time, I watched one of the same Vipers smoke a nitrous/cammed Vette at the track. Apparently Vette had nitrous problems (didn't kick in). At any rate. . .either choice is a good one. It all depends on what you are looking to accomplish.
Of course, now I am a cammed/SC Vette. . .can't wait to play with those Viper boys!
Just be ready, if you run into a "sick sounding VIper", be prepared to have your A$$ handed to you, unless you are running either juice, or a blower (where you can run substantially more power).
I had the opportunity to run a couple Vipers here in St. Louis, it wasn't close. At the same time, I watched one of the same Vipers smoke a nitrous/cammed Vette at the track. Apparently Vette had nitrous problems (didn't kick in). At any rate. . .either choice is a good one. It all depends on what you are looking to accomplish.
Of course, now I am a cammed/SC Vette. . .can't wait to play with those Viper boys!
Yeah, I know better then to mess with a sick sounding Viper. I was talking about messing with the stock ones. 
If you raced at a track what were the times that the Viper ran?
I doubt I would come across a Viper that would run 10's on the street around here but anything is possible. My luck I would come across a Hennessey Viper.
Last edited by MikeJamesC5; Nov 21, 2004 at 02:15 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 35
From: Fairview Hts. IL
The Viper I ran on the street, ran an 11.1x at the track. He would normally be a 10 second car.
He and I were supposed to hook up to run at a Vette/Viper shootout, but it got cancelled due to bad weather.
Hopefully, I will get him at the track next summer.
He and I were supposed to hook up to run at a Vette/Viper shootout, but it got cancelled due to bad weather.
Hopefully, I will get him at the track next summer.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,120
Likes: 0
From: Ypsilanti MI
Originally Posted by hogurt
The Viper I ran on the street, ran an 11.1x at the track. He would normally be a 10 second car.
He and I were supposed to hook up to run at a Vette/Viper shootout, but it got cancelled due to bad weather.
Hopefully, I will get him at the track next summer.
He and I were supposed to hook up to run at a Vette/Viper shootout, but it got cancelled due to bad weather.
Hopefully, I will get him at the track next summer.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 35
From: Fairview Hts. IL
I am not aware of any head/cam setups that will get you into the 10's! 
BTW, I smoked the Viper when we ran on the street. Maybe you missed my point? If you don't go blower, or nitrous, don't mess around with those mean Vipers because you will get smoked!
The head/cam cars I have seen in St. Louis are running high 11's. Maybe if they ran slicks, they could get into the low 11's with the track prepped just right.
Then again, if choose to go blower, it's only a matter of changing the pulley to add 50-100rwhp.
BTW, I smoked the Viper when we ran on the street. Maybe you missed my point? If you don't go blower, or nitrous, don't mess around with those mean Vipers because you will get smoked!
The head/cam cars I have seen in St. Louis are running high 11's. Maybe if they ran slicks, they could get into the low 11's with the track prepped just right.
Then again, if choose to go blower, it's only a matter of changing the pulley to add 50-100rwhp.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,506
Likes: 0
From: Hillsborough NJ
Originally Posted by hogurt
I am not aware of any head/cam setups that will get you into the 10's!
Rob then took my H/C Z, which he had never driven before (I have a very different clutch from his...and I think he was respecting that it was my car) and he proceeded to easily drive it to an 11.3@123. Had he really pushed it, I am certain he would have had it into the 10'.x's. I can't even drive yet and I did a 11.55 (with a 1.69-60'). We did have a well prepped track, and the weather was very good, so these factor in as well. But H/C cars can and do run in the 10's, no doubt about it. 
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 35
From: Fairview Hts. IL
Originally Posted by Geneus
I think you need to pay a bit more attention to the forums. I was at a track rental 2 weeks ago at Atco and witnessed Robz driving his Cartek "cam" only Z to a 10.9x's at 126mph (1.50 - 60'). Rob then took my H/C Z, which he had never driven before (I have a very different clutch from his...and I think he was respecting that it was my car) and he proceeded to easily drive it to an 11.3@123. Had he really pushed it, I am certain he would have had it into the 10'.x's. I can't even drive yet and I did a 11.55 (with a 1.69-60'). We did have a well prepped track, and the weather was very good, so these factor in as well. But H/C cars can and do run in the 10's, no doubt about it.
Rob then took my H/C Z, which he had never driven before (I have a very different clutch from his...and I think he was respecting that it was my car) and he proceeded to easily drive it to an 11.3@123. Had he really pushed it, I am certain he would have had it into the 10'.x's. I can't even drive yet and I did a 11.55 (with a 1.69-60'). We did have a well prepped track, and the weather was very good, so these factor in as well. But H/C cars can and do run in the 10's, no doubt about it. However, you bring up another very good point. Can you post a video of your car idling? This will be a great opportunity for people to see what it takes to run into the low 11's with a head/cam setup. BTW, I assume you have LT Headers? Are you running an A4, or M6? I would assume you are an M6 with those trap speeds? If you were an A4, you would also have to have a high stall converter, gears and very sticky tires.
It's a good comparison because, I can show you an A4 SC Vette which will run low 11's, maybe 10's with a good driver and it will idle like stock!
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 26,345
Likes: 232
From: SoCal
Originally Posted by hogurt
Your new questions mean you should almost certainly go with the SC.
1. With a stock converter, the head/cam setup is NOT a good choice because the cam will move the powerband up. As a result, you will need a looser converter to put you in the powerband quicker.
2. Is one louder with headers? This actually brings up two points. With the SC, you won't even need headers! When you do add them, the headers will make the head/cam car louder. Actually, the head/cam car will be louder to begin with. . .because even a smaller cam (I have the 224/224), you will have to raise RPM's at idle. . .the headers will just make it appear louder. Although if you go with the SC, you won't need headers and you won't gain much from adding them. If you add the SC and NO headers, you will get around 450rwhp through the A4!
3. If you go with a mild setup, neither setup is likely to cause engine damage. The key here = go to a reputable tuner!
4. Which is easier to smog - Again, there is no comparison, the SC does nothing to change the SMOG setup. In fact, when you are sitting at idle, the SC will be running like a stock car. In all likelihood, the H/C setup will also pass smog, however, you could select a cam which would prevent it from passing. . .with the SC, passing smog is NEVER a problem.
I am sure someone will hop on here and say, add a 150 shot, it won't have any problems either.
While they are right, I would assume from the title you are not going to consider nitrous?
Oh, one more factor which will always make going with the SC a better choice.
When you add a SC, you can always choose to change the setup and add a head/cam later. Your supercharger choice does NOT need to take into account adding a H/C later.
When you choose H/C, you cannot always add a SC later. In other words, your H/C choice DOES need to take into account adding forced induction. Why?
If you are running forced induction, you will choose a different head/cam setup than you would choose if you were running naturally aspirated (because you would want to lower the compression ratio). Based on this fact, you would always be better off choosing forced induction first and adding the head/cam setup later. The only time this is NOT true, do you want a big lopey idle. If so, you have to go with the head cam setup because you will never want to run FI. . .since a big cam will NEVER be ideal for a FI setup.
I hope this helps. People struggle with this decision all the time. Obviously, I did the same thing. Some people choose head/cam setup and other choose FI. If you were to right out the pro's and con's of each, the SC will win hands down. However, if there is something (such as the big lope at idle) which you really want, then writing all the Pro's and Con's isn't necessarily the best approach.
Good luck. I hope to see you in the FI section soon.
1. With a stock converter, the head/cam setup is NOT a good choice because the cam will move the powerband up. As a result, you will need a looser converter to put you in the powerband quicker.
2. Is one louder with headers? This actually brings up two points. With the SC, you won't even need headers! When you do add them, the headers will make the head/cam car louder. Actually, the head/cam car will be louder to begin with. . .because even a smaller cam (I have the 224/224), you will have to raise RPM's at idle. . .the headers will just make it appear louder. Although if you go with the SC, you won't need headers and you won't gain much from adding them. If you add the SC and NO headers, you will get around 450rwhp through the A4!
3. If you go with a mild setup, neither setup is likely to cause engine damage. The key here = go to a reputable tuner!
4. Which is easier to smog - Again, there is no comparison, the SC does nothing to change the SMOG setup. In fact, when you are sitting at idle, the SC will be running like a stock car. In all likelihood, the H/C setup will also pass smog, however, you could select a cam which would prevent it from passing. . .with the SC, passing smog is NEVER a problem.
I am sure someone will hop on here and say, add a 150 shot, it won't have any problems either.
While they are right, I would assume from the title you are not going to consider nitrous?
Oh, one more factor which will always make going with the SC a better choice.
When you add a SC, you can always choose to change the setup and add a head/cam later. Your supercharger choice does NOT need to take into account adding a H/C later.
When you choose H/C, you cannot always add a SC later. In other words, your H/C choice DOES need to take into account adding forced induction. Why?
If you are running forced induction, you will choose a different head/cam setup than you would choose if you were running naturally aspirated (because you would want to lower the compression ratio). Based on this fact, you would always be better off choosing forced induction first and adding the head/cam setup later. The only time this is NOT true, do you want a big lopey idle. If so, you have to go with the head cam setup because you will never want to run FI. . .since a big cam will NEVER be ideal for a FI setup.
I hope this helps. People struggle with this decision all the time. Obviously, I did the same thing. Some people choose head/cam setup and other choose FI. If you were to right out the pro's and con's of each, the SC will win hands down. However, if there is something (such as the big lope at idle) which you really want, then writing all the Pro's and Con's isn't necessarily the best approach.
Good luck. I hope to see you in the FI section soon.
1. I already have Kooks
2. I will only do one or the other not both H/C and SC
3. I will not do N2O
4. I do not want big lopey cam...my car sounds fine as is...this mod is for performance not sound. I would like to add power with the least additional sound.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,506
Likes: 0
From: Hillsborough NJ
Originally Posted by hogurt
Great numbers.
However, you bring up another very good point. Can you post a video of your car idling? This will be a great opportunity for people to see what it takes to run into the low 11's with a head/cam setup. BTW, I assume you have LT Headers? Are you running an A4, or M6? I would assume you are an M6 with those trap speeds? If you were an A4, you would also have to have a high stall converter, gears and very sticky tires.
It's a good comparison because, I can show you an A4 SC Vette which will run low 11's, maybe 10's with a good driver and it will idle like stock!
However, you bring up another very good point. Can you post a video of your car idling? This will be a great opportunity for people to see what it takes to run into the low 11's with a head/cam setup. BTW, I assume you have LT Headers? Are you running an A4, or M6? I would assume you are an M6 with those trap speeds? If you were an A4, you would also have to have a high stall converter, gears and very sticky tires.
It's a good comparison because, I can show you an A4 SC Vette which will run low 11's, maybe 10's with a good driver and it will idle like stock!
I will try to get my son to make me a sound clip of the car at idle and try to post it (I've never posted anything at the CF site, so it should be interesting). To answer some of your questions, yes I have Kooks 1 3/4 headers set up as off road, going thru the stock Z Ti exhaust. The car has a great, mellow sound, but not loud. I'd rather it that way. I have a Z06, so that should answer the trans question (its a 6 speed with a Hurst
). As for my idle, I am extremely pleased with the tune on my car. Though the LG G5X3 is considered a "big" cam, I find the drivability to be excellent. I hear about cars having problems in the low rpm range. I can cruise around the roads of my locale in 4th gear at 40mph without any issues. Even my tuner is impressed about the relatively sedate manners of my car. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying I'm very pleased with my H/C set up from an overall driving perspective. Yet don't be mistaken....put your foot down and all 452 rwhp come alive thru the 4.10 gears and the car is an animal.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,120
Likes: 0
From: Ypsilanti MI
Originally Posted by hogurt
I am not aware of any head/cam setups that will get you into the 10's!
Yeah, there are h/c cars running 10's. I've been re-searching those cars for almost a year now.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,120
Likes: 0
From: Ypsilanti MI
Originally Posted by Geneus
Yet don't be mistaken....put your foot down and all 452 rwhp come alive thru the 4.10 gears and the car is an animal.
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,898
Likes: 35
From: Fairview Hts. IL
Originally Posted by Geneus
Hogurt,
I will try to get my son to make me a sound clip of the car at idle and try to post it (I've never posted anything at the CF site, so it should be interesting). To answer some of your questions, yes I have Kooks 1 3/4 headers set up as off road, going thru the stock Z Ti exhaust. The car has a great, mellow sound, but not loud. I'd rather it that way. I have a Z06, so that should answer the trans question (its a 6 speed with a Hurst ). As for my idle, I am extremely pleased with the tune on my car. Though the LG G5X3 is considered a "big" cam, I find the drivability to be excellent. I hear about cars having problems in the low rpm range. I can cruise around the roads of my locale in 4th gear at 40mph without any issues. Even my tuner is impressed about the relatively sedate manners of my car. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying I'm very pleased with my H/C set up from an overall driving perspective. Yet don't be mistaken....put your foot down and all 452 rwhp come alive thru the 4.10 gears and the car is an animal.
I will try to get my son to make me a sound clip of the car at idle and try to post it (I've never posted anything at the CF site, so it should be interesting). To answer some of your questions, yes I have Kooks 1 3/4 headers set up as off road, going thru the stock Z Ti exhaust. The car has a great, mellow sound, but not loud. I'd rather it that way. I have a Z06, so that should answer the trans question (its a 6 speed with a Hurst
). As for my idle, I am extremely pleased with the tune on my car. Though the LG G5X3 is considered a "big" cam, I find the drivability to be excellent. I hear about cars having problems in the low rpm range. I can cruise around the roads of my locale in 4th gear at 40mph without any issues. Even my tuner is impressed about the relatively sedate manners of my car. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying I'm very pleased with my H/C set up from an overall driving perspective. Yet don't be mistaken....put your foot down and all 452 rwhp come alive thru the 4.10 gears and the car is an animal. That's kind of what I thought. You should also realize, the person who started this post has an A4. Going with a "big cam" on an A4, often causes surging problems during idle (along with other various problems).
Personally, if I knew I would ONLY do one or the other, I would probably go with the head/cam setup because I LOVE the lopey idle. But, I think everyone who says, "I only want XXX HP", is fooling themselves. Once you get started, it's never enough.
