Does It Get Stronger
Racer
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
From: Ontario
That's right get a bike and it will be all over.... There is no comparison.
I Have an 05 suzuki gsxr 1000 and an 05 arctic white c6 coupe auto and this is the reason i went auto this time because I have a bike that is a true rocket when i feel the need.... Nothing will ever compare until there is flying machines for sale...lol..
I Have an 05 suzuki gsxr 1000 and an 05 arctic white c6 coupe auto and this is the reason i went auto this time because I have a bike that is a true rocket when i feel the need.... Nothing will ever compare until there is flying machines for sale...lol..
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,436
Likes: 4
From: Everett Wa
Originally Posted by Vet
Interesting... thanks. What was the torque curve like from 1,500 rpm or where ever the run started?
Imagine what a Z06 must be like in the low end torque department! Oh boy! But finally, there's only so much power you can put to the ground for street use. TOO much torque is actually not a good thing if all it's gonna do is spin the tires.
Imagine what a Z06 must be like in the low end torque department! Oh boy! But finally, there's only so much power you can put to the ground for street use. TOO much torque is actually not a good thing if all it's gonna do is spin the tires.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Vet
But you cannot compare gearing from a Mustang or Crossfire. The engines in those cars make way less low end torque. Those cars NEED that extra gearing / torque multiplication, where as the big LS2 does not.
Having an overall first gear ratio of 12.0:1 would be too much for an LS2... yes, you CAN overgear. I know this because I've done a lot of hands-on experimenting with transmissions, rear ends etc in various big V8 cars. One friend of mine tried a near 11.0:1 first gear overall ratio in a car with a strong 400 cube engine (set up for street use with manual tranny)... the car was nearly undrivable, had to start out in 2nd gear. We brought it back down to around 9:1 and it was good there.
I'd say my Z51's first gear is as low as it should ever be... a 2.97 first with 3.42 rear = 10.16:1 overall ratio. I personally would never recommend changing the rear gears in a Z51, the gearing is perfect. You'd only make it worse by swapping in a lower rear gear.
The base non-Z51 car... yes, 9.1:1 first overall ratio... hmmm... ok, well that's one good reason to get a Z51!
But 9.1 is still fine for the LS2.
If one with a base car really needs to have more kick, I'd say maybe try a 3.73 or 3.90 rear MAX. A 4.10 would probably only hurt unless you swapped in a super big cam that made very poor low end torque compared to stock... that's when you really might NEED to upgrade gearing.
I've driven / ridden a lot of extremely fast vehicles. I am 100% happy with my C6 Z51 in bone stock form. I often cannot understand why anyone would have a strong desire to try to make it go "faster", especially after paying $50k+. The C6 gives you every bit of performance possible for the price, and it's damn powerful! Learn to appreciate what you have there. If you need to go so much faster, get a bike!
Having an overall first gear ratio of 12.0:1 would be too much for an LS2... yes, you CAN overgear. I know this because I've done a lot of hands-on experimenting with transmissions, rear ends etc in various big V8 cars. One friend of mine tried a near 11.0:1 first gear overall ratio in a car with a strong 400 cube engine (set up for street use with manual tranny)... the car was nearly undrivable, had to start out in 2nd gear. We brought it back down to around 9:1 and it was good there.
I'd say my Z51's first gear is as low as it should ever be... a 2.97 first with 3.42 rear = 10.16:1 overall ratio. I personally would never recommend changing the rear gears in a Z51, the gearing is perfect. You'd only make it worse by swapping in a lower rear gear.
The base non-Z51 car... yes, 9.1:1 first overall ratio... hmmm... ok, well that's one good reason to get a Z51!
But 9.1 is still fine for the LS2.If one with a base car really needs to have more kick, I'd say maybe try a 3.73 or 3.90 rear MAX. A 4.10 would probably only hurt unless you swapped in a super big cam that made very poor low end torque compared to stock... that's when you really might NEED to upgrade gearing.
I've driven / ridden a lot of extremely fast vehicles. I am 100% happy with my C6 Z51 in bone stock form. I often cannot understand why anyone would have a strong desire to try to make it go "faster", especially after paying $50k+. The C6 gives you every bit of performance possible for the price, and it's damn powerful! Learn to appreciate what you have there. If you need to go so much faster, get a bike!
I wrote to Dyno tech Engineering about having a 3.73 rear installed in my car. This was their response:
Hi Tom,
We do not know of any recommended installation shops in your area that we would trust as if it were our car that was being worked on.
In our experience and based on your driving style description, the 3.73 ratio will not be enough for you, especially on a nearly stock car that typically sees street use. The 4.10 ratio has been the most popular gear of choice for the M6-trans. equipped vehicle's producing under 450 RWHP. This ratio makes the car feel as if it is producing 50 more HP than it actually is and the acceleration is much more aggressive, which makes the car a lot funnier (sic) to drive in all gears.
Hope this helps and let us know if we can be of further service.
Happy Holidays and God Bless,
Sales/Technical Staff
Dynotech Engineering, Inc.
Ph: (260)407-5455
Fx: (260)407-5457
www.dynotech-eng.com
_______________________
I also wrote to Rockland Standard, a company here in NY that does a lot of rear gear changes and one that was recommended by Motive Gears, and this was their response:
TOM
I DO ALOT OF 410 WITH MN6 TRANNY'S (266). THATS THE ONE YOU WANT TO DO ITS FUN TO DRIVE.
THANKS GEORGE
It was because of these responses, and posts from others on the forum who also recommended the 4.10s, that I began thinking of installing either a 3.90 or 4.10 rear gear rather than the 3.73 that I had been considering. It's also why I started looking at what other cars had gearing wise.
Changing the rear gears is one of the easiest and cheapest ways to get better acceleration and that's why I suggested that the original poster might want to consider it.
I know that Crabman has installed 3.90 gears in his C6 and he is very happy with the results.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,488
Likes: 27
From: Long Island NY
Originally Posted by Pozzo
Changing the rear gears is one of the easiest and cheapest ways to get better acceleration and that's why I suggested that the original poster might want to consider it.
Originally Posted by Pozzo
t was because of these responses, and posts from others on the forum who also recommended the 4.10s, that I began thinking of installing either a 3.90 or 4.10 rear gear rather than the 3.73
Perhaps drive a Z51 car if you can before you swap any gears. See how you like the first gear action of the Z51. This will give you an idea of what a 10:1 overall first gear ratio feels like. For around town, I think going any "lower" will just be a headache to drive. You'll be in and out of 1st gear so fast that it'll be purely aggravating. If you are drag racing ONLY, that's another story.
I don't want to go against the recommendations of experienced shops, but the line does become gray as to what is truly "ok" for daily street use, and what is perhaps leaning too much into "performance-land" to the point where it may make the car less enjoyable for daily use.
Just like with cams. Back in the day, a lot of respected hot rod shops recommended very large cams for "street" use. In many or MOST cases, I would have fully disagreed with their recommendations. I know because I used to do hands-on experimenting and testing of different cams, heads and gearing combos.
Some shops think that a cam that can barely idle, pulls almost no low end torque at all and literately spits raw fuel out the tailpipe is ok for "street use". I have to STRONGLY disagree. Can you drive it on the street? Yes. Can you live with it on a daily basis, stop and go, traffic, heat, cold, etc? I couldn't... totally unacceptable to me. Great for racing, not good for daily use.
I suppose the term "daily driver" or "street use" just needs to be better defined per individual case. I lean toward conservative... I like a car I can drive every day, drive anywhere, in any condition, and have it perform flawlessly... and be FAST too of course!
I'll say this... I just had my stock Z51 MN6 out 30 minutes ago, drove about 30 miles over typical town roads, 25 - 45 mph limit, some traffic here and there, some stop lights, hills, some twisties, etc. I would NOT want this car to be any different than it is right now. I would not change a thing. It's perfect! This is my comment after experimenting with cams, heads, gearing etc in cars for years. This is also my comment as a total speed nut and spending years riding motorcycles that could run 0-60 in less than 3 seconds.
This C6 is so damn excellent right out of the box that sometimes I just can't believe it. I guess that's why I tend to get a little defensive when I hear about people wanting to mod the car, at least for "street use". For guys who race... totally different story, and I'll admit, I am not overly experienced with competition drag or road racing. There is a BIG difference in the way a car should be set up for competition racing verses daily street driving.
Well, just some more food for thought anyway. It's all subjective to an extent. It would really be great if you could somehow get a chance to drive a C6 that has either had 3.90 or 4.11 gears installed, or at least drive a stock Z51. You should know what you're getting into before you do it. Hey, you might love it. It wouldn't be for me however. Again, just another view.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Vet
Generally speaking, I would fully agree, especially if the car is a bit "under-geared" to begin with.
Ok, I dig. I still might not agree with their recommendations though. I suppose it all depends on what you expect from the car. I come from the school of "daily driver", meaning add as much "performance" as possible, as LONG as it does not interfere with the car's ability to be a 100% excellent daily driver, a car you can live with every single day in ALL situations without getting annoyed.
Perhaps drive a Z51 car if you can before you swap any gears. See how you like the first gear action of the Z51. This will give you an idea of what a 10:1 overall first gear ratio feels like. For around town, I think going any "lower" will just be a headache to drive. You'll be in and out of 1st gear so fast that it'll be purely aggravating. If you are drag racing ONLY, that's another story.
I don't want to go against the recommendations of experienced shops, but the line does become gray as to what is truly "ok" for daily street use, and what is perhaps leaning too much into "performance-land" to the point where it may make the car less enjoyable for daily use.
Just like with cams. Back in the day, a lot of respected hot rod shops recommended very large cams for "street" use. In many or MOST cases, I would have fully disagreed with their recommendations. I know because I used to do hands-on experimenting and testing of different cams, heads and gearing combos.
Some shops think that a cam that can barely idle, pulls almost no low end torque at all and literately spits raw fuel out the tailpipe is ok for "street use". I have to STRONGLY disagree. Can you drive it on the street? Yes. Can you live with it on a daily basis, stop and go, traffic, heat, cold, etc? I couldn't... totally unacceptable to me. Great for racing, not good for daily use.
I suppose the term "daily driver" or "street use" just needs to be better defined per individual case. I lean toward conservative... I like a car I can drive every day, drive anywhere, in any condition, and have it perform flawlessly... and be FAST too of course!
I'll say this... I just had my stock Z51 MN6 out 30 minutes ago, drove about 30 miles over typical town roads, 25 - 45 mph limit, some traffic here and there, some stop lights, hills, some twisties, etc. I would NOT want this car to be any different than it is right now. I would not change a thing. It's perfect! This is my comment after experimenting with cams, heads, gearing etc in cars for years. This is also my comment as a total speed nut and spending years riding motorcycles that could run 0-60 in less than 3 seconds.
This C6 is so damn excellent right out of the box that sometimes I just can't believe it. I guess that's why I tend to get a little defensive when I hear about people wanting to mod the car, at least for "street use". For guys who race... totally different story, and I'll admit, I am not overly experienced with competition drag or road racing. There is a BIG difference in the way a car should be set up for competition racing verses daily street driving.
Well, just some more food for thought anyway. It's all subjective to an extent. It would really be great if you could somehow get a chance to drive a C6 that has either had 3.90 or 4.11 gears installed, or at least drive a stock Z51. You should know what you're getting into before you do it. Hey, you might love it. It wouldn't be for me however. Again, just another view.
Ok, I dig. I still might not agree with their recommendations though. I suppose it all depends on what you expect from the car. I come from the school of "daily driver", meaning add as much "performance" as possible, as LONG as it does not interfere with the car's ability to be a 100% excellent daily driver, a car you can live with every single day in ALL situations without getting annoyed.
Perhaps drive a Z51 car if you can before you swap any gears. See how you like the first gear action of the Z51. This will give you an idea of what a 10:1 overall first gear ratio feels like. For around town, I think going any "lower" will just be a headache to drive. You'll be in and out of 1st gear so fast that it'll be purely aggravating. If you are drag racing ONLY, that's another story.
I don't want to go against the recommendations of experienced shops, but the line does become gray as to what is truly "ok" for daily street use, and what is perhaps leaning too much into "performance-land" to the point where it may make the car less enjoyable for daily use.
Just like with cams. Back in the day, a lot of respected hot rod shops recommended very large cams for "street" use. In many or MOST cases, I would have fully disagreed with their recommendations. I know because I used to do hands-on experimenting and testing of different cams, heads and gearing combos.
Some shops think that a cam that can barely idle, pulls almost no low end torque at all and literately spits raw fuel out the tailpipe is ok for "street use". I have to STRONGLY disagree. Can you drive it on the street? Yes. Can you live with it on a daily basis, stop and go, traffic, heat, cold, etc? I couldn't... totally unacceptable to me. Great for racing, not good for daily use.
I suppose the term "daily driver" or "street use" just needs to be better defined per individual case. I lean toward conservative... I like a car I can drive every day, drive anywhere, in any condition, and have it perform flawlessly... and be FAST too of course!
I'll say this... I just had my stock Z51 MN6 out 30 minutes ago, drove about 30 miles over typical town roads, 25 - 45 mph limit, some traffic here and there, some stop lights, hills, some twisties, etc. I would NOT want this car to be any different than it is right now. I would not change a thing. It's perfect! This is my comment after experimenting with cams, heads, gearing etc in cars for years. This is also my comment as a total speed nut and spending years riding motorcycles that could run 0-60 in less than 3 seconds.
This C6 is so damn excellent right out of the box that sometimes I just can't believe it. I guess that's why I tend to get a little defensive when I hear about people wanting to mod the car, at least for "street use". For guys who race... totally different story, and I'll admit, I am not overly experienced with competition drag or road racing. There is a BIG difference in the way a car should be set up for competition racing verses daily street driving.
Well, just some more food for thought anyway. It's all subjective to an extent. It would really be great if you could somehow get a chance to drive a C6 that has either had 3.90 or 4.11 gears installed, or at least drive a stock Z51. You should know what you're getting into before you do it. Hey, you might love it. It wouldn't be for me however. Again, just another view.
My car is stock and I do not race. The thread below is from a C6 owner asking if he should change to 4.10 gears and the replies he's gotten all say he should.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...errerid=195639
Here's another thread about gears:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...errerid=195639
Last edited by Pozzo; Jan 5, 2006 at 07:31 PM.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: Bartlesville Oklahoma
Get a Tune!
If it hasn't been mentioned previously, one other option is to get a tune from one of the forum tuners. After headers and a tune on mine, it drives much better. The tune takes out the torque management, adjusts the air/fuel ratio table for optimization across the power band and gives you full power through the lower gears. Everyone on the forum who has had the tune has commented about how much more responsive the LS2 is and more enjoyable to drive!! Not necessarily alot more horsepower, but makes it available more often.
Racer
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
My Opinion
Because of the use of synthetic oil it takes longer to break the engine in for peak performance. Depending how often you tromp on the gas you can expect the car to run better as time goes on. I would expect under most driving conditions that the car should be fully broken in around 5000 miles.
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
From: Ofallon mo
I have 05 z-51 with those 3.42's. I have 3900 miles on her and rolling in 2nd gear at 1500 rpm if i mash the gas it burns the tires off till i hit about 50-60mph. I think that is plenty of juice. I would think going 4.10's would be a little steep. Maybe 3.73's..just my $.02
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Instructor
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
From: east greenbush ny
I asked the same question here last april(500 miles on it). I traded my 02 c5 for my 05 c6 and was disappointed with the power (sotp). Everyone flamed me and told me to "take the parking brake off". HA-HA. Only a couple of members said " just wait ,it will come". It did at about 1500 miles ,and it felt much stronger and pulled harded than my c5. YOU WILL FEEL IT!!!