Bad Gas
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 8,514
Likes: 235
From: Currently somewhere in IL,IN,KY,TN,MO,AR,MS,AL, or FL
What's with all this "low tank/sucking off the bottom"? Why would any system have a floating suction pipe? As Bob pointed out, the suction is taken a few inches off the bottom. It doesn't matter if the tank is empty or full, any gas that comes out of the nozzle came from a few inches above the bottom of the tank.
And the reason Top Tier is important in this case is they tend to be the better operated stations. A station that is pumping gas 3 cents cheaper than a Top Tier station has to recover that 3 cents somewhere. One easy place is not changing filters as often.
And the reason Top Tier is important in this case is they tend to be the better operated stations. A station that is pumping gas 3 cents cheaper than a Top Tier station has to recover that 3 cents somewhere. One easy place is not changing filters as often.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,277
Likes: 72
From: Boston's south shore MA
Racer
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 395
Likes: 1
From: shelton connecticut
I dont see how all eight fuel injector had to be cleaned. If the gas had water I think changing fuel filter and draining tank is all you had to do. You said the car still ran but bucked. To clog a fuel injector (8 of them) you had to have large particles of say a glue like substance get past the fuel filter and into the fuel rails than the injectors. I think your mechanic got you on this one. I high pressure injector takes years to build up enough crap to start clogging. It is usually shellac from gas drips sitting to long. I'M not doubting your mechanic did the work I think he did a lot of unnecessary work. i wish he took a picture op the injector for you to see. It was probably cleaned for nothing. You got me on the 02 sensors. Unless the car was really detonating I think that was an unnecessary change. Did you service engine like come on and did you get the codes. If the 02s are bad the car tells you. Throttle body well no fuel there. But it probably looks pretty when you wipe it with a rag. What was that charge to clean that?
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
From: Mesquite Texas
I dont see how all eight fuel injector had to be cleaned. If the gas had water I think changing fuel filter and draining tank is all you had to do. You said the car still ran but bucked. To clog a fuel injector (8 of them) you had to have large particles of say a glue like substance get past the fuel filter and into the fuel rails than the injectors. I think your mechanic got you on this one. I high pressure injector takes years to build up enough crap to start clogging. It is usually shellac from gas drips sitting to long. I'M not doubting your mechanic did the work I think he did a lot of unnecessary work. i wish he took a picture op the injector for you to see. It was probably cleaned for nothing. You got me on the 02 sensors. Unless the car was really detonating I think that was an unnecessary change. Did you service engine like come on and did you get the codes. If the 02s are bad the car tells you. Throttle body well no fuel there. But it probably looks pretty when you wipe it with a rag. What was that charge to clean that?
Service engine light was on, codes P0171 and P0300. Report said engine misfire on cyl 11 3 5 7.
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,597
Likes: 101
From: TN PA
CI 5-6-7-8-9-10-11 Vet
Is it possible the gas had a high content of ethanol? My Service Manager son has seen this problem a few times. The ethanol content was in the 18-20% range and the cars would hardly run.
In most areas ethanol is splash blended in the tanker after it is filled with gas and then blends as the truck goes down the highway....
In most areas ethanol is splash blended in the tanker after it is filled with gas and then blends as the truck goes down the highway....
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,984
Likes: 185
From: CT
Valero is the second (maybe first) largest refiner in the U.S. and only recently started selling gas under their name. It is a quality product. Ethanol is blended in almost all the gas sold in the U.S. up to 10% per gallon. Next year, under federal mandate ALL gas in the U.S. will be required to have 10.23% ethanol. Might not seem much of a difference, but current auto makers state that there engines/systems can handle up to 10% blend (unless engine is specifically made for E-85 use). Don't know if that's going to cause problems in 2009.
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Race Director
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 10,089
Likes: 14
It is possible for certain kinds of contaminants to poison the O2 sensors. Water won't, excess ethanol won't, ordinary dirt won't, but things like certain sulfur compounds, and of course tetra-ethyl lead, will. I doubt the O2 sensors would be harmed by the ordinary sorts of contaminants commonly found in gas station fuel.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,171
Likes: 1
From: Longview Texas
For what it's worth, I recommend the Top Tier gasolines. I use them in all my vehicles and never a problem. Although a large refinery & producer of gasoline, Valero isn't on the list. Just my opinion.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 15
From: Southern Florida
However if your friend had Ethanol in the gas he wouldnt have water in the tank.Here is a Diagram of a common tank. #5 show's the pump piping does not go to the bottom of the tank. Typical application is 2-3 inches off the bottom - about 400 gallons remain when the station is "out"
What the Diagram does not show are the .10 Micron filtration units on the pump itself, in addition it does not show the Electronic monitoring system data which covers water and other vital stats such as ground intrusion.
A. Tank Bottom Deflector Plates
B. Primary Tank Fittings
1. Turbine Enclosure
2. Fitting Kits for Turbine Enclosure
3. Secondary Containment Collar
4. Electronic Inventory Gauge
5. Containment Collar Sensor
6. Electronic Control Panel
7. Split-Strap Anchor System
8. Deadman Anchor
9. Dispenser
10. Dispenser Sump
11. Double-Wall Pipe
12. Submersible Pump
13. Fill Tube with Overfill Shut-Off Device
14. Ball Float Valve
15. Overfill Spill Container
16. Primary Tank Vent
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,007
Likes: 0
From: Happiness is Busch in Victory Lane!
St. Jude Donor '09 & '12, '14
Is it possible the gas had a high content of ethanol? My Service Manager son has seen this problem a few times. The ethanol content was in the 18-20% range and the cars would hardly run.
In most areas ethanol is splash blended in the tanker after it is filled with gas and then blends as the truck goes down the highway....
In most areas ethanol is splash blended in the tanker after it is filled with gas and then blends as the truck goes down the highway....
Ooohh I like this answer. Did the Gas have Ethanol in it ?
In some cases fuel is blended with Ethanol right at the truck. There are calculations done based on amount of fuel in the truck.
A typical gas truck has 5 Compartments with the front and rear compartment being around 2500 gallons each. the middle 3 average 3500 (1500, 1000, 1000) = 8500 gallons total.
Each compartment must have the proper amount of Ethanol dispensed into it. If the process fails it is quite possible to raise Ethanol to 20-25% which will cause conditions like the OP has described.
Last edited by Daytona Bob; Nov 23, 2008 at 09:19 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 937
Likes: 70
From: Ponte Vedra Florida
Thursday night on our way home from dinner I stopped and filled up with gas. I always use 93 octane gas and have been buying at this station for over 5 years. On Friday morning when I started my vette it was coughing and sputtering somthing fierce. I drove to work anyway and took it to the dealership at 8:00 am. About a hour later the service tech called me and told me that the gas was contaminated.
Well after draining the tanks, cleaning the fuel lines, injectors, throttle body and replacing the o2 sensors it cost $1057.
I contacted the Valero company and they sent me the "Customer Fuel Concern" forms. Hopefully I will get rembursed for this mess. I did save a sample of the bad gas just in case they need it.
Well after draining the tanks, cleaning the fuel lines, injectors, throttle body and replacing the o2 sensors it cost $1057.
I contacted the Valero company and they sent me the "Customer Fuel Concern" forms. Hopefully I will get rembursed for this mess. I did save a sample of the bad gas just in case they need it.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,007
Likes: 0
From: Happiness is Busch in Victory Lane!
St. Jude Donor '09 & '12, '14
I had the same type of bad gas problem with my '05. Filled with 93 octane and a leading dealer, name starts with "M". My Chevy dealer found deisel fuel in tank, gas station does not carry deisel. Mistake I made was fueling at station while tanker was unloading, tanker had "some" left over deisel. Tanker company would not pay, "M" paid half my $950.00 bill. BY the way, I broke a valve sping on way to dealership, no piston damage, valve did not drop down.
Do you think they "wash" the inside of it prior to filling up with gas?
In fairness - some companies use a designated Diesel trailer. All bet's are off when Demand spikes and that trailer is on the road.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 133,592
Likes: 30
St. Jude Donor '11, '16
What's with all this "low tank/sucking off the bottom"? Why would any system have a floating suction pipe? As Bob pointed out, the suction is taken a few inches off the bottom. It doesn't matter if the tank is empty or full, any gas that comes out of the nozzle came from a few inches above the bottom of the tank.
And the reason Top Tier is important in this case is they tend to be the better operated stations. A station that is pumping gas 3 cents cheaper than a Top Tier station has to recover that 3 cents somewhere. One easy place is not changing filters as often.
And the reason Top Tier is important in this case is they tend to be the better operated stations. A station that is pumping gas 3 cents cheaper than a Top Tier station has to recover that 3 cents somewhere. One easy place is not changing filters as often.
It is a long list....
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,984
Likes: 185
From: CT
Top Tier is a marketing program. All gas must contain additives. True, the name brands often have more, but even the minimum should not cause a problem. On the list Exxon/Mobil is not listed. I almost always fill all my cars (9) with Mobil and never ran into any type of problem. I guess Exxon/Mobil didn't want to shell out money to be listed with Top Tier (You can bet it cost all of them money to be listed)
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,974
Likes: 148
From: Magnolia Texas
That theory works as long as the tank does not have a leak and has been infiltrated with ground water.
The piping ensure that water from condensation does not get sucked up but a leak in an area with a high water table can fill the whole tank with water....How?
Let's say the water table is 1 foot below the surface. The tank starts full of gas. The first car pumps 20 gallons, as it flows out, 20 gallons of water flows in to replace it via the site of the leak.... The process continues and each time the gas/water mixture is pumped out, more water enters to contaminate the fuel even more...
The piping ensure that water from condensation does not get sucked up but a leak in an area with a high water table can fill the whole tank with water....How?
Let's say the water table is 1 foot below the surface. The tank starts full of gas. The first car pumps 20 gallons, as it flows out, 20 gallons of water flows in to replace it via the site of the leak.... The process continues and each time the gas/water mixture is pumped out, more water enters to contaminate the fuel even more...
