Re Mustang question: I realize that this is a Corvette site but I think that many of the group are likely to be overall car enthusiasts as I am. I can appreciate all types of cars if they are good at what they do. For example, I once rented a Toyota Avalon on a business trip and although I wouldn't buy one, I respected that it delivered about 90 percent of the Lexus LS experience for half the price. I also rented a Prius and found it to be a fascinating piece of technology.
Even on the Miata forum people would ask about the Honda S2k and there would be an open give and take about pros and cons vs the miata. So for the Mustang, I thought it would be interesting to get the Vette guys perspective. It is said to have numbers that would have been near super car just a few years ago and since value is part and parcel of the Vette formula, I find it interesting that the new Mustang is giving great performance at a bargain price. I think that it pales in styling and statement to the Vette but I would be interested to test drive one at least to try out the new manual trans that the journalists seem to be raving about. I don't think that car competes with the Vette but since high performance at a relative bargain is part of the Vette attraction, they seem to be creating a lower tier bargain.

 

You guys that think Ford uses the Corvette as a measuring stick against the Mustang really have no clue.

 

I believe the reason is exactly what Joe said it was. Only engines that have the dry sump are hand assembled so it pretty much backs up his explanation.

I don't believe that the hand assembled engines are any more reliable or better performing than the ones assembled at the factory. Now that we have the same engine (LS3) being built both ways we may be able to finally settle the argument with some hard facts once the GS has been in service for a couple years.

I suspect that we will see no significant difference between the two methods, but that's just my guess.

 

There is another engine also built at Wixom. It's 4.4l supercharged and in my daily driver.

 

You may not believe it, or even understand it, but there is value in having one builder take his time carefully assembling an engine, versus a mass assembly line. This is basic common sense and it's surprising that it's even being debated. But, then again, that's how it goes on CF.

 

Maybe, but there are really no facts to back up the claim and all I'm saying is I doubt there is a measurable difference. However, like I said, now that the LS3 is being built using both methods maybe we will finally see.

My XLR-V's engine was hand built and I would like to think it's better than those that are not, but I have no proof. I just don't believe it's as obvious as you seem to think that one person assembling a engine is necessarily better than the engines built by multiple humans and machines on a assembly line.

 

Virtually every performance car manufacturer in the world hand assembles their top of the line engines. A higher quality product is ensured, and it matters not the mass produced assembly line engines aren't blowing up on a regular basis. I"m sure Calloway or LPE could have their built motors mass assembled in mexico if they wanted. But, they choose to have highly trained people do the assembly in house. Marketing gimmick? I don't think so.

 

There is more care and attention that goes into hand assembled engines. The debate on whether or not it makes more power versus machine line assembly isn't the point.

 

My LS7 uses no oil between changes whereas my LS2 used about a quart.Go figure.

 

You don't want to know how much oil my LS1 went through, huh?

All this bullsh*t about machine produced engines versus hand built..... Just remember, "Man" built the "machines" that build the other "machines" too.....

I've very satisfied that my engine was built and quality controlled by someone that was willing to put their name on it.....

 

:beatdeadhorse :

 

These questions have surfaced before, so hope you don't mind if I take the easy way out. Dialogue below was previously posted on Corvette Forum - but slightly updated. Hope this helps.

Value of "hand-built" engines?
________________________________________
Quote: Originally Posted by OregonC6

I'm sure that many would be enthusiastic to learn , right from the source, about the many ways that a "hand built Wixom" LS3 is superior to a non-hand built Wixom LS3. Don't be shy, be specific and tell us all the differences.

Also of interest would be if this "hand building" will result in higher hp, greater reliability, or anything else tangible.

Certainly forged cranks are a good thing. But, I don't recall many crank failures being discussed on the LS3. What can the owner of a forged crank LS3 expect in the way of superior performance and reliability?

Don't hold back now! Tell us all the reasons why Wixom hand built engines are superior to those built the "other way".

Reply from eaglei:

I doubt that I can adequately answer all of your questions regarding advantages of our hand built engines. In order to do so I would need comparative data concerning power, reliability, durability and failure rates of mass produced vs. hand built. As an engine builder I do not have conclusive information. All I can do is address questions about our hand built process.

With that in mind, I'll offer some observations from my perspective:

Hand built engines have a higher level of scrutiny. This applies to the inspection of parts before assembly and to examination of complete engines. Parts are closely inspected for imperfections and for cleanliness. Also a builder develops a "feel" for how things should go. If something doesn't feel right, you can immediately verify - or back up if need be. An example of "feel" is inserting pistons into cylinders.

Close inspection is inherent to the process - each part is installed by the same builder - and installation requires a high degree of awareness. That is not to say that all defects are always caught - but we do have some very careful eyes looking things over. An added incentive to careful assembly is that our names are attached to our engines.
If defects are found, or suspected, we have immediate response from our in house quality and engineering teams. If something is questioned, it can be immediately contained until the issue is resolved. Again, I'm no expert regarding what happens at high volume engine plants, but I do know that our close scrutiny has resulted in changes from our suppliers ensuring cleaner parts, and fewer imperfections. Examples include better packaging of cylinder blocks and crankshafts. Our observations and findings put the heat on suppliers to supply consistent, high quality components.

Error proofing:

All torques have multiple checks. When a fastener is tightened there is an immediate go/no go indication. Also each station has a flat line indicator to ensure all torques are complete. Further, the stations are monitored with zone reports. There are four zones for each engine built which give a green (go) or red (no go) indication. When completing a zone, the builder does a bar code scan for his engine to get this output.

Leak checks - each engine is carefully leak checked before completion. Water and oil systems are pressurized and leakage is recorded. Again, there is a green (go) or red (no go) output. If there is a problem it is immediately investigated and fixed. I have been told that our specs. are the strictest for any GM engine plant.

Care checks - Each engine is carefully examined by the team leader at the end of the line, using a comprehensive checklist. After cold test and balance the engine is again checked against an exhaustive checklist.

Cold test - Each engine is spun and checked in house at our cold test cells. Thousands of data points are recorded and scrutinized by the computer program. If a problem is suspected it is immediately caught and examined by our quality specialists. Items checked include ignition, oil pressure, torque variation, cylinder pressure and many more. Cold test has proven to be a valuable quality tool.

Balance checks - After cold test each engine is run and balanced. Balance must be within 0.5 inch ounces at front balancer and flywheel before it is shipped (and is often much less).

Customer focus - We are low volume so every order is very important us. We cannot survive unless our customers (you) are satisfied. We have frequent customer interaction, through the Corvette Forum and other venues.

Tangible value - This is somewhat subjective. Many Z06, ZR1 and Grand Sport owners enjoy knowing who built their engines, and some have come into the PBC for tours and to meet their builder. Our facility is owner friendly - you can easily arrange a tour to see how our process works.

I would like to believe that our product retains a premium dollar value, but that may be harder to verify with the economic turmoil of the last few years.

Sorry if I've danced around some of your questions. I hope this info is of some value to you. I'm sure I've missed some points that should be included. If you have any particular questions, please ask.

Don Henley

 

The following is a link to a pretty thorough coverage of an LS9 build.

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/forum/g...-ls9-3614.html

Look for a major article covering an LS3 dry-sump in the not too distant future.

 

Thanks Don. I'm going to bookmark this information.

 

great info, thanks for taking the time to type it.

My car will be built during the week of May 24th, could you please make sure one of your engines makes it in there...

 

I think some might have missed the point I was making. It's pretty obvious that hand assembled engines are not a bad thing and in theory might even be better.

However, my point is that as Don said, there are no real tangible advantage that has been proven out. Being able to say your engine was hand assembled and has a tag identifying who did it is cool, but is it better? Are they more or less reliable? I think it's pretty clear that there is no performance advantage.

In the past there was no way to tell because all of the LS7's & 9's are built the same way. However, now that we have the same engine (LS3) being built using both methods maybe we will be able to actually see the benefits of a hand assembled engine if there are any.

Let me make it clear that I'm in no way arguing that one is better than the other. I have cars in my garage that were built using both methods so it's certainly not a matter of me trying to say mine is better than yours. I just don't jump to the conclusion that others have without knowing/seeing some proof. Theory is great, but statistical facts are proof.

Finally, there is really no need to continue the debate (for me anyway) until we can see some data to prove or disprove the theory on way or the other.

 

Q; what if that builder is having a bad day, ect,ect......come on ...this isn't a lambo plant its mass production any way you look at it,,,,,enjoy,enjoy

 

Wish I could honor your request, but we have no control over which engines go into particular cars. Maybe someone at Bowling Green could help you but I think it is more luck of the draw.

However, every builder at Wixom is highly experienced, and it would be arrogant for me to say my engines are better. But if I buy one (and I hope to some day), you know whose engine I will be looking for. That would be so cool!

Thanks for your plug, let us know who has the honor to provide your engine!

 

Sorry, I was teasing more than anything. Thank you for the great service you and your fellow engine builders provide to this great community.

 

Thanks Don;
Wow! The naysayers have disappeard-much thanks for your great contribution to the Forum-Purchased a new Cyber Grey Coupe, manual, 3LT, about 2 weeks ago & will check for the builders plate tomorrow-Thanks for participating in the Corvette Forum!